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- Ring around the rosey, pockets full of.....
Alligator Ate The Public Interest Lawyer
Submitted by Dan U-A on Tue, 09/18/2007 - 12:23pm.
We earlier talked a little bit about public interest lawyers, and the push of well meaning students into life as corporate, rather than public interest, lawyers.
Well, look who is the lead person talked about in a story on this very matter:
Jennifer Kates dreams of working one day as a public-interest lawyer. A 2007 graduate of the University of Pennsylvania Law School in Philadelphia, Kates hopes to use her law degree to provide legal services to the underprivileged, perhaps focusing on housing policy. Yet, come this fall, Kates will start work as a first-year associate at Dechert, a 1,000-lawyer firm based in Philadelphia that is better known for its work defending the makers of Vioxx than tenants facing eviction.
Ask Kates why she has chosen to enter private practice rather than the public sector and she’ll tell you about the ease of finding a big-firm job through on-campus recruiting and the opportunities to do pro bono work while at Dechert. But Kates also acknowledges that financial considerations played a part in her decision to work at a large law firm.
“I don’t know how I’d afford [working in a public-interest job],” Kates says. “I’m really not sure how the money would work out.”
While the average starting salary for public-interest lawyers in 2006 was $36,000, according to NALP, an association for legal career professionals, a freshly minted lawyer starting her legal career at Dechert earns $145,000—not including annual bonuses or thousands of dollars in perks like reimbursement of bar-review fees.
We all know the numbers are bad. The nice thing is that there is a slow consensus that this type of problem must be solved. This is just a guess, but if Democrats win the White House, it seems like there is a good chance this will happen. And, in the Statehouse, Pennsylvania could chip in too, and do it now, and get the ball rolling. Then, combined with debt forgiveness programs from Law Schools themselves, public interest minded law students can become public interest lawyers.
Here, by the way, are the current bills being proposed in the US Congress:
Named after a well-known district attorney from South Carolina, the John R. Justice Prosecutors and Defenders Incentive Act of 2007 would provide up to $60,000 in loan repayment assistance to law school graduates who agree to work for at least three years as local or state prosecutors or for three years as local, state, or federal public defenders. Eligible lawyers would receive loan repayments of up to $10,000 a year and would have the option to renew their participation in the program for another three years.
Senator Richard Durbin (D-Ill.) has championed the proposal through several congresses, introducing S. 442 in January. The House companion measure quickly followed and was adopted by the House in May. Circumventing obstacles to consideration of his bill in the Senate, in July Durbin amended the bipartisan Senate bill to reauthorize and amend the Higher Education Act (S. 1642) to include his proposal. His amendment also incorporated language proposed by Senators Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) and Ben Cardin (D-Md.) to provide similar loan repayment for civil legal assistance lawyers, at $6,000 per year to a maximum of $40,000. S. 1642 went on to unanimous approval in the Senate. The legislation is expected to come up for House consideration this fall.
The second measure to receive ABA support would completely forgive the balance of any eligible federal loans for lawyers who have worked in the public sector for 10 years and made punctual student loan payments during that time. This program was included in House and Senate legislation to reform federal student lending. The College Cost Reduction Act of 2007 (H. 2669), which went on to bipartisan approval in both houses of Congress, is awaiting conference to reconcile the differences between House and Senate versions of the bill. This valuable program has been championed in the 110th Congress by Senator Edward Kennedy (D-Mass.) and Representatives George Miller (D-Calif.) and John Sarbanes (D-Md.).
This needs to get done. Getting the ball rolling in PA would be a good start.
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Tuition Reimbursement Helpful But Not Enough To Meet Gap
The difference between a $145,000 a year starting salary as a corporate lawyer and $50,000 a job as a public interest lawyer with $10,000 in tuition paid each year is still huge.
$145,000 a year is an awful lot of money; it is just $20,000 a year less than the Governor of Pennsylvania makes, and more than Cabinet members or state legislators. It is more than the average salary for the head of a non-profit in Philadelphia--about $110,000--more than any member of City Council earns, and more than the vast majority of managerial positions earn.
The problem is that ultimately these high legal salaries require large hourly billings to be maintained. Those who are able to do massive amounts of work in a competent manner can find their salaries hitting $500,000 or more; the many who cannot find themselves drifting away into general practice where the salary differential with public interest law will be far lower.
I will be glad to work with anyone interested in establishing tution payback up to $10,000 a year for those who go into public interest law. But I think we have to be realistic: this is not going to stop people who are capable of earning millions of dollars before they hit 40 from staying where they are now.
Jennifer is at least the 5th Young Philly Politics contributor on the big law firm track; I wish them all the financial success they are seeking.
But politics is about the distribution of resources and tax burdens. In a matter of fact, nonjudgmental manner, we all should recognize that the economic interests of $145,000 to $500,000 a year lawyers, and the average Philadelphia family earning perhaps one-third of the lower figure, are not the same, and that there is an inherent tension here.
You're correct.
I often go back and forth between what I want to do in relation to practice, and, while my firm is a bit more "modest" in terms of starting salaries, it is still a larger Philadelphia firm (more regional, less national, however). The things that keep me where I am, in addition to the student loans (which are not as bad as others), which should be noted are:
The work: It is often challenging (and frustrating) and rewarding. Also, it is almost always there. Company based clients generate so much business in terms of litigation that I'm not as concerned as my corporate law peers about economic downturns. Similarly, I'm not as concerned with funding like my public interest peers. Rather, I focus my concerns on being profitable and productive (niether of which I'm doing right now).
The partners: I work for good partners here. They are excellent attorneys to learn from and some are fixtures in the Philadelphia and Pennslyvania Bar Associations.
The lifesytle: Sure, I've worked my tail off preparing a case for trial, discovery, etc. I've sometime worked until 3 a.m. drafting motions for a case on consecutive nights. I've lost countless weekends too. But, I can think of no other job that I am asked why I decided to work from home, or leave on Monday to tailgate, or be treated like a professional. I know I make money by my time and my work product, and I'm trusted with both. That is a nice thing.
My office: I've already decorated it.
The support staff: Having worked at a mid-sized firm with few assistants and no paralegals, my practice has become more law-oriented than before--and I like it. Also, it gives me some management experience, which is a tough thing to come by.
The training: My firm runs an in house academy of advocacy where the senior partners come in and lecture us associates on how to do things, argue, take depositions, pick juries, etc. Then, we have simulations related to the topics. That is a great investment in people. And, I like that too.
At least from my perspective, it is not just salary I take into account. There are tons of intangibles too. I've learned to deal with the crappy side of firm practice and the above has certainly helped.
I am working to elect Larry Farnese to the General Assembly. Unless otherwise expressly stated, this and every comment or blog I post on YPP and any action I take hereon is solely attributable to me and not Farnese or Friends of Farnese
They do not need to be the same
Mark,
I don't think they need to be the same, or remotely close to the same for programs like the one you propose to have a measurable impact. People in general are not going into public interest law to become rich. It is a better, much more fulfilling job for a lot of people, it allows you to have a life, to see your kids, to feel good about yourself, etc.
The money thing is more that while public interest lawyers don't need to have their salaries be equivalent with private firms, they should be able to not work two jobs, to buy a home, to have children, and not be in endless debt.
There are people (a lot of them) who will always go for the 7 figure job. It is not your job to make sure that doesn't happen. But there also are truly a lot of us out there that don't want that life or lifestyle. We just want to be able to be middle-class while using our degrees for something other than making sure Mattel isn't liable for selling toys with lead paint.
So, ten grand a year would make a huge, huge difference. (Especially if you forced schools to not count that in their own repayment programs as a condition). If there is something we can do to help, let us know.
jennifer: somone's got to do it
Jennifer, I am glad you are at a big firm because it means you can be hit up for big bucks on future campaigns.
I can't believe this is up here
or that I am the poster child for 'well-meaning but sold out'. Anyway, something the article missed: I took the job so I could buy lots of really fancy shoes.
Anyway, Dan, thanks for celebrating my first week of work in this touching way.
he's a charmer
isn't he?
Congratulations, Jen!
Smart, talented, and big-hearted. Best of luck with the new gig.
--Tim
WSJ article today
Today's WSJ has a good article on the proliferation of law schools and the lack of information schools provide to students who aren't hired by top firms. Many of these students end up without jobs. Unfortunately, the article is subscription only (I saw it in the actual paper). Nonprofit work may not have to pay much if there are too many lawyers.
Essentially the legal profession is growing much slower than the economy but hordes of students still go to law school because they see it as a route to make money.
Then, there is an older editorial that touches on some of the same themes here at the WSJ.
--Mike
Weeds in the Sidewalk
Since I have a new, profitable, corporate law job
...(which is apparently a matter of public record on this site) if anyone wants the article, email me and I'll send it to you.
Us lawyers here have free WSJ access.
Nice article.
I have never dined with a rock star and I've never been remotely famous.
But, I did work all weekend on a brief.
The legal profession isn't all that great and it does not guarantee wealth. Jobs at larger firms, while lucrative, are not plentiful relative to the number of lawyers. And, the profession is demanding--weekends, nights, cranky partners and clients who, while enjoying their weekend and time with their families, expect you to be at their beck and call. The stress level is high (trials, deals and deadlines). Issues of advancement are tough and there is tons of competition.
That being said, some of the people I work with are the nicest people I've ever met. The partner I work for is a great lawyer and a good teacher. I've been lucky.
Still, I try my hardest to convince people not to go to law school.
I am working to elect Larry Farnese to the General Assembly. Unless otherwise expressly stated, this and every comment or blog I post on YPP and any action I take hereon is solely attributable to me and not Farnese or Friends of Farnese
One of the best analyses
One of the best analyses I've read about the plight of the smart, text-minded professional is in, of all places, David Brooks's Bobos in Paradise. Lawyers, businessmen/women, academics, and journalists/professional writers (at least at the David Brooks level) require similar skills, education, and intellect, and enjoy roughly the same amount of cultural cachet. The reason why lawyers and businessmen get paid so much more (besides the fact they actually generate and protect wealth) is because they have to spend an incredible amount of time working on things they have little interest in. The academic, at the other end of the spectrum, faces a much tougher job market and makes comparatively much less money, but has much more time to pursue whatever they are interested in.
It's a tough thing to navigate, and I don't envy anybody.
--Tim
If I had to do it all over again...
I gotta agree with Gaetano on that last part. I try not to discourage people from following their dreams, but I educate them early on the realities of legal practice.
If I had to do it all over again, I think I would be a toll booth operator. Flexible hours, great benefits, good pay ($44K per anum on a high school diploma ain't bad)....And when someone rubs you the wrong way, you can shoot them with a paint gun.
Man fires paintball gun from toll booth:
http://media.www.dailytargum.com/media/storage/paper168/news/2004/02/26/...
Paintball-Shooting Toll Collector Can Go Back to Work, Court Says:
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1177405463966
Toll Collector A Tough Job
Being a toll collector is a tough job, which many people get fired from or quit.
One is constantly exposed to the elements: rain, snow, heat, cold. One has to jump up and down repeatedly, stretch to sometimes uncomfortable disstances, and work in a confined space at the bottom of a totem pole.
One has to make change quickly and accurately and keep good financial records while dealing with hundreds of drivers a day. One has to face rigorous supervisory tactics designed to make sure that the many of thousands of dollars each collector gets each day are not lost or diverted.
One has to face competition from both cost-cutting ideas (only collect tolls one way) and E-Z Pass, which reduces jobs for toll collectors.
In short, the number of number of toll-collecting jobs is shrinking; the supervision is intense; the health dangers are great;
firings and even criminal prosecution are possible for poor record keeping; the job is certainly more stressful than many jobs are.
Any struggling lawyer should be very thankful that, at the very least, no what the ups and downs of law practice, he or she is not a toll collector.
Well, I guess . . .
J. Young could have said he'd rather be a State Legislator. But, you have already detailed the horror involved therein--being criticized and scrutinized, etc.
I think you've missed the point. But, since legislators have 2 month vacations and can work a side job or 3, what does it matter?
Either way, a client isn't calling your ass in on a weekend and ruining your anniversary dinner, kid's first birthday or threatening to shut down a hard-earned vacation. Or, in some practioner's cases, a client is locked up in the middle of the night. Or, in a few of my cases, the state and city government has messed up a bid process so badly, I spend the next 36 hours writing an emergency injunction. Legislators bitch and moan when the budget session goes a week or two later than usual. For lawyers, and just about every other profession working late, and often is part of the job.
Ignoring any hyperbole and toll collector comparisons, point is: if you think the law profession leads to a life of wealth and extravagance, there are plenty of lawyers out there who disagree. I think that is a simple proposition.
I am working to elect Larry Farnese to the General Assembly. Unless otherwise expressly stated, this and every comment or blog I post on YPP and any action I take hereon is solely attributable to me and not Farnese or Friends of Farnese
Many Jobs Are Tough
Many, many jobs are tough, with all sorts of pressures. Trial lawyers are far from the only people who work past midnight, whose dinner and family life is repeatedly interrupted. Compensation in our society is based on market value of the work, the ability of the employee to find other positions, the willingness of the employee to engage in bargaining for greater compensation, the relevance of the job to the protection and enhancement and wealth, and numerous other factors only somewhat related to the amount of work actually done.
There ought to be empathy for all workers, and not a mix of braggadocio and whining about people earning $150,000 a year or so, and contempt or false envy of blue collar workers earning a small fraction of the salaries of high-paid white collar workers.
If any lawyer really wants a toll collector job, they should feel free to contact the office of their state legislator or the Pennsylvania Turnpike Commission and try to try to get one. First, though they would be well advised to volunteer to the Teamsters Union to represent any of the many toll collectors who are laid off for not meeting one standard or another; representing toll workers, as I have done on a pro bono basis, would lead to greater understanding of their situation.
I do not understand why my empathy for blue collar workers has to lead to attacks on state legislators. It is ludicrous to say that state legislators get two or three month vacations; periods when the legislature does not meet as a unit are full of intense work on legislation and constituent service. And those legislators who earn significant amounts of money from other jobs are few and far between; financial disclosure forms show that about half of all state house members, for instance, do not earn the reporting minimum of $1,300 annually.
If Larry Farnese or anybody else thinks that they are going to win election to the legislature and maintain an active trial practice, they are going to soon learn otherwise if elected.
Lawyers or other professionals who win election to the legislature thinking the salary will be be a good supplement to their existing income are almost always disappointed; the general trend is that the salary replaces all or the vast majority of the pre-existing professional income over time.
Simple, just simple.
Hey, Rep. Cohen, it has nothing to do with your empathy, but everything to do with your inability to follow a thread and stay on topic. I think you severly missed J. Young's point and perhaps should go back and read it again. It ties in with Jennifer's larger point.
Again, read the disclaimer below. I speak for myself and my own opinions. No one elses. Thank you.
I am working to elect Larry Farnese to the General Assembly. Unless otherwise expressly stated, this and every comment or blog I post on YPP and any action I take hereon is solely attributable to me and not Farnese or Friends of Farnese
Wall Street Journal Article Link
I believe the article you are referring to is available here. The WSJ is changing their online structure and business model (pun intended) and allowing free access to more content.
Thanks for helping with the
Thanks for helping with the link.
--Mike
Weeds in the Sidewalk
I really really hate to top this
But for the interested, "Georgetown Law professor explains the 'College Cost Reduction and Access Act of 2007' in a forthcoming law review article.
Philip Schrag has just released a law journal article that explains how the recently passed 'Collect Cost Reduction and Access Act of 2007' will affect students already working in public interest jobs and makes recommendations for further reforms. The article is entitled 'Federal Student Loan Repayment Assistance for Public Interest Lawyers and Other Employees of Governments and Nonprofit Organizations.'" (Via ACS blog.)