Is Fattah for Stop and Frisk?

Michael Nutter is getting a lot of heat for his support of Stop-and-Frisk. It seems that some of this heat is coming from Chaka Fattah and his supporters. Isn't Chaka Fattah in favor of stop and frisk, as indicated in this thread? [More words needed....] Or is Fattah double-talking on this just like he is on taxes?

From the Fattah Crime Plan, re:"targeted enforcement"

Designate Patrol Officers to Go After Illegal Guns. With our existing police force, we will designate specially trained patrol officers in each Police District to go after illegal guns and the criminals who are most likely to use them. This targeted enforcement has been proven to be effective in other cities. A 1992-93 study conducted by the University of Pennsylvania's Lawrence Sherman showed that targeted patrols in an area of Kansas City, Missouri with a murder rate six times higher than the city as a whole showed a 49% drop in gun crimes and a 65% increase in gun seizures. A 1997 study in Indianapolis showed that targeted patrols in one high crime district reduced gun crimes by 29%.

I believe those "targeted patrols in an area of Kansas City," and those in Indianapolis involved stop and frisk tactics. It would seem to me that he was indeed advocating stop and frisk patrols in Philadelphia and I think that was reported when he announced his "Gun Safe Philadelphia" plan. Not sure when he apparently changed his mind.

I support Michael Nutter for Mayor

The big difference

Fattah has not changed his mind. Designating one specially trained and highly accountable police officer per police district is a very different proposition than allowing EVERY member of the force, presumably including rookies and cops who have not been on the streets in a while to stop ANYONE they want.

misrepresentation

Ray, This grossly misrepresents what Michael Nutter proposed. I believe he proposes specialized task forces (although more than one person per district), not "EVERY member of the force." Also, no one proposes the right "to stop ANYONE they want." An articulable reasonable suspicion is needed to stop anyone, under Nutter's plan or otherwise.

----
I support Michael Nutter for Mayor. My slate.

So under Fattah's stop and frisk plan

One officer per police district would be trained in stop, question and frisk tactics? Would that be one officer total or one officer per shift? It sounds a little bit like being half-pregnant.

But from your answer I see that Fattah actually is still advocating stop and frisk in some form while saying he believes it is unconstitutional if Michael Nutter is mayor.

I support Michael Nutter for Mayor

specially trained patrol officers in each district

With our existing police force, we will designate specially trained patrol officers in each Police District to go after illegal guns and the criminals who are most likely to use them.

Actually, the way that is written in Fattah's policy paper indicates that there would be more than one officer in EACH police district trained in the tactic that he carefully avoids naming in the plan.

Nutter hasn't proposed allowing every member of the force to stop anyone they want.

You want another try on what the big difference is?

I support Michael Nutter for Mayor

Cmon Doc- Look down

Right below this comment, there is a clear discussion of the differences.

I see that

And the stated difference between the two forms of stop and frisk is that Fattah's policy doesn't provide a great deal of detail compared to Nutter's plan for a declaration of a state of emergency.

So by not providing great detail with regard to how he would institute a police tactic, which he won't even name in his plan, but did say was part of his plan when he introduced it, Fattah's version of stop and frisk escapes scrutiny and allows him to question the constitutionality of the same tactic under Nutter's plan?

How about if someone asks Fattah how he would make sure that the stop and frisk component of his plan wouldn't lead to racial profiling?

If the problem is the state of emergency, then why has the stated target of scorn become stop and frisk? And why has Fattah been so willing to engage in that scorn of a tactic that he advocates? These are serious questions that no one is posing to Fattah.

I support Michael Nutter for Mayor

I'm focusing entirely on policy here.

Questions before commenting:

Would this police officer be in all places at all times in order to stop-and-frisk. Will this police officer sleep, or would we tell the criminals to not carry handguns during the times this one specially trained police officer was off duty. Otherwise, I'd imagine the overtime would be quite costly.

Here is the truth about Terry stops, any officer can do them now--provided they have met the required standard--a reasonable suspision that the suspect was armed and dangerous and had been, is, or was about to engage in a criminal act. Not one officer, but an entire police force can do this.

So, based on what I am hearing here, Fattah's plan is to take away a legitimate and constitutionally recognized crime fighting tool from the 4,000 police men and women on the street in favor of one "super cop" from each district. It doesn't make sense to me.

You can say what you want about the Nutter plan, but at least it understands legitimate crime fighting tools, that are, in part, based on keeping police officers safe. Based on this one "super cop" plan, I'm not convinced that Fattah does. Either Fattah does not understand stop and frisk or he wants us and our men and women in blue to be less safe. Sorry.

I am going to try to revisit this before the election

but...

Yes, the Sherman study and the discussion of targeted enforcement zones involves stop and frisk (the study is deployed to show that stop and frisk is effective in reducing crime).

Both Nutter and Fattah cited the same study in their crime plans, which had overlapping elements.

The big difference between the two men's plans--and why my earlier writing on this gravitated towards emphasis on Nutter--is that Nutter situated his support for stop and frisk within a plan to declare a crime-based state of emergency in violence-plagued Philadelphia areas. In the debates, the two get conflated: discussion and criticism of stop and frisk is really discussion and criticism of the state of emergency thing.

Why this is has to do with the weird double-bind Nutter has put himself in (evident in his defense of stop and frisk last night): to not freak people out, he has to emphasis constitutionality and "probable cause" (which isn't the legal standard, which is actually lower, but whatever). But now he is just saying, under me we will do what we already can--and to a certain extent are--doing. When Nutter described the circumstances under which police could stop people to search for illegal weapons (he went into detail about the specific suspicious qualities that would support a search), he was talking about circumstances where police are already going to stop and search.

I think he is (somewhat irresponsibly) grasping onto rhetoric that he thinks differentiates himself as tough on crime, but I don't think he has the stomach to actually be that tough. I am heartened by the fact that all the other candidates think that it is a problem to rely more heavily on police discretion.

One of the problems with Nutter's plan and why Evans is right to talk about the risk of racial profiling is that I think Nutter departs too far from Sherman's study when he describes the "targeted enforcement zones" where a state of emergency would be declared. Nutter references whole neighborhoods like Strawberry Mansion. Sherman's study is based on the fact that we have specific data about past violent crime, and have the ability to pinpoint pretty narrowly where it is likely to recur. That's block-by-block data. Following it, you would declare a state of emergency on corner X.

If you do it across a whole neighborhood, everyone who lives there or has to pass through (as opposed to choosing to remain on corner X) is subject to lowered privacy rights. Nutter's plan as written referenced the mayor's ability under the state of emergency to outlaw movement (walking, driving) through the area. Anyone then who has to walk or drive through can be stopped.

Fattah doesn't say any of this, so he gets less heat.

I will do some more research, but I also think it is unfortunate that the conversation on crime prevention devolved fighting over stop and frisk and the number of new officers (500? 1000?) after the initial plans were promising. The mayoral candidates must determine what has been demonstrably effective elsewhere in reducing violent crime. Nutter claims that stop and frisk was effective in New York; Evans points out the recent studies that show the rise in racial profiling and minority complaints against the police in that period. People aren't talking about the shift in institutional culture in the NYC police also during that time.

What we should be replicating is the COMPSTAT system, which uses real-time data on crime to aggressively hold precinct-level police chiefs accountable for the crime rates in their areas:

The effort was also highly focused, based on restructuring and assisted by the intelligent use of immediately available information. Authority was decentralised to precinct commanders. The role of the centre was to exert scrutiny over those with day-to-day responsibility. In twice weekly "Compstat" (computer statistics) meetings, local precinct commanders gathered to review real time crime statistics and be cross-examined on their performance.

The New York police were therefore clearly accountable for their performance. Precinct commanders were accountable to the commissioner. The commissioner was accountable to the Mayor, who was in turn accountable to the electorate.

This is the sort of reform of how we police that is absent when we focus on the number of new police officers.

Jennifer

Eh, we already have COMPSTAT

But I still think that the key is there: up-to-the-minute crime data, used to identify and analyze where crime is happening, coupled with aggressive accountability throughout the police force up to the mayor.

This links up with the aspect of the Sherman study that is valuable as well: I think its lesson has to do with use of information for targeted enforcement, rather than broad-based stop and frisk policies.

Jennifer

Thanks, Jennifer (and other posters, please take note)

For your well-informed posts on the issue. The amount of rhetoric the cadidates are throwing out there, and the amount of spin-doctoring being done by their supporters at YPP are very disturbing.

These are very important issues: racial-profiling, civil rights, violence rates, police/community relations. I hope that people will follow your lead and stop the cheap politization. I look forward to reading more of what you have to say after you've done that research

Yeah, we kind of tapered off

on this for a while, since we had beat it a bit into the ground, but I am glad to see it resurge as both a campaign issue and a topic of discussion here.

What I was researching--before the end of the semester took over from everything else--was the legality of the state of emergency plan.

There's some good background discussion on the technical legal standards and desirability of stop and frisk from earlier here. (Broad summary: the police can already do a hell of a lot, and Gaetano and I disagree about whether you should trust them.)

Jennifer

Information Over Stats

I think the pressure/accountability throughout the police force needs to not just be on statistics, but qualitative information: finding out not just where violent crimes are occuring, but identifying patterns, targeting criminal organizations, developing cooperative relationships with community members, so that we have a much better picture about what's happening on the street -- or even what's happened in a particular crime -- beyond just the numbers.

Disclosure: Totally basing my comments off of episodes of The Wire.

At least twice as authoritative a source as "Law and Order"

I'd guess!

Jennifer

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