Transfer Victory!

Great news just came in from Lance Haver: a Common Pleas Court judge has ruled that SEPTA must not eliminate transfers. There will be an appeal in Commonwealth Court and who knows if this reprieve will last. But for now, transfers are safe.

Legal action and the strong support of the city are clearly important. But, what are the long-term solutions here?

How can the power the city has displayed continue to be leveraged--especially in the Nutter administration when Lance Haver may no longer on the Mayor's staff and able to play the consumer advocacy role he does now (not to mention his contribution of leadership to the Transit Coalition)?

And, if transit folks win on appeal and transfers are not eliminated, will SEPTA raise the base fare? If so, should we support that or fight it too?

I have to say that as a regular SEPTA rider I am pretty disgusted with SEPTA's treatment of passengers in this last funding crisis and I am pretty disinclined to pay them higher fares. I think I'd rather find new revenue--like maybe making a deal with Penn, Drexel, La Salle, Temple, and St. Joe's to get some portion of student activity fees to cover transpasses for all of their students--than have regular riders pay more fares.

I think expanding the base of riders, and using the power of the city to leverage better service from SEPTA is the most important thing to do right now. I know I have tendency to go too fast though, and savoring this victory should be fun.

Thanks Lance and everyone at the City who invested time and money into fighting SEPTA in court!

From Dan:
Here is the article. Transfers stay. And the judge smacks them down.

"What the evidence demonstrates," DiVito wrote, "is that SEPTA's board (1) voted to eliminate paper transfers (2) to mollify the legislature in hopes of ensuring funding (3) without any study of the impact on those who would be most adversely affected (4) without any semblance of a 'modernization plan' ready (5) with no agreement with the school board in place when (6) they could have designed a plan with an equitable impact on all of its riders."

DiVito called the SEPTA board's approval of the plan to elminate transfers "capricious and ... a manifest and flagrant abuse of discretion." He ordered the board to reinstate use of transfers.

They are appealing, as expected. Let's be clear, they are appealing to try to inequitably screw poor riders going to church on Sundays. Call it the cross-town Church tax. (And, they can eliminate the transfers immediately too, if they just modernized the damn fare system. But, this is SEPTA, so...)

Not to get in the way of a good SEPTA bash

and not that SEPTA deserves credit - but we should acknowledge the good news that Philly students, like those in the rest of the state, will not have to pay for public transportation this year.

more details please

yea I am sort of out of the news loop (still down the shore) but I heard about this. does anyone have the details? I would have qualified for this new transpass when i was in high school. I bought school tokens instead (some kids got them free). Who subsidized school tokens? The School District or SEPTA? Is the funding formula the same now for the new transpasses?

Seconding the request for information

I have only seen brief reports about this. Does anyone have more information about how the students riding free deal went down?

If SEPTA wants to gouge anyone, for God's sake, gouge me!!!

I think SEPTA's analysis on this was that transfers are a product used by the fewest number of its users, making that the justification for targeting them.

What they didn't realize, though, was that low demand reflected high need in the population that used them.

If SEPTA wants to figure out how to gouge anyone, it's me - the occasional (very occasional) rider. Don't hit people who need SEPTA most. Hit the ones who need it least.

Talk about political backwardness... an authority that's widely reviled goes after the base that's most dependent on it -- poor folks. When they could go after folks who care the least about it, like tourists and occasional commuters and anyone who lives in Chester.

---
BradyDale OnLine
The R.I.I.C. Blog
The Philadelphia Unemployment Project

Neither, I think. Because

Neither, I think. Because we want the occasional rider to be turned into the regular rider, right? And not feel totally screwed the first time they get on, and have to pay 5 bucks to get from Germantown to Center City, for example.

wrong attitude brady

sorry brady, I generally agree with you on almost all things, but there is no excuse to gouge anyone. period.

occasional riders are occasional for a reason: either their daily lives take them away from where SEPTA routes go, or they don't go anywhere, or they hate SEPTA/prefer another mode of transit (for lack of enough service or customer service or cleanliness or maybe only ride when it rains/snows or whatever) and prefer to drive/walk/bike.

however, when any of these people do ride the system, they should not be gouged.

Here is the biggest problem: SEPTA is a public service. It is not gonna ever make a profit. We all need to acknowledge that--as we do with highways--and think of it as a necessary public service--like libraries--that should prioritize state funding over fares as a primary source of income.

The Fair Settlement of the Fare Lawsuit

has been obvious to everyone for months.

A small increase in the cash fare, token price, and transfer price will bring SEPTA all the revenues it needs without eliminating transfers.

No one really knows how much SEPTA expects to get from eliminating transfers. First it was 8 million, then 10 to 11 million, and today I heard 5 to 6 million. We need to find out the real number and figure out what reasonable, small fare increase would be.

We have to reduce reliance on fares but we have to ask riders to pay some share of the cost. That's partly for political reasons as we can't get funding from Harrisburg without some money coming from the fare box. And partly it is a matter of fairness. People who benefit from public services should pay part of the cost in some rough proportion to the benefit they receive.

And most importantly, we need lots of money to make the system better for everyone both in the short term--with cleaner buses and trains, more timely information, and service that runs on time--and in the long term--with a number of major expansion projects.

Mayor Street said at a SEPTA Board meeting that he would accept SEPTA's original plan A which would have raised the token a dime or fifteen cents and the transfer fifteen cents. But it is not clear he will still push for this. SEPTA is reluctant to trust the city and doesn't want to be seen as reponding to political pressure. But they are losing money while the court case drags out. And, even if we lose in the higher courts, transit activists are going to ask the legislature to force SEPTA to keep transfers.

We are trying to create some pressure on SEPTA and the City to settle the lawsuit on these terms now. You can help by telling SEPTA and the city to work for a settlement of the lawsuit that saves transfers. You can contact SEPTA by calling 215-580-7800 or emailing them at cservice@septa.org. You can contact the Mayor’s Office at (215) 686-2181.

TRANSIT FARE STUDY

And while you are at it, tell SEPTA to release the study about the disparate impact of transit fares they supposedly have done. The PTC sent the following letter to SEPTA General Manager Faye Moore today:

Faye Moore, General Manager
SEPTA
1234 Market Street
Philadelphia, PA
Dear Ms. Moore,

             We are writing on behalf of the Pennsylvania Transit Coalition, a broad based group of unions, clergy, seniors, environmentalists and advocates.  Over the last 4 years we have worked towards our recent achievement of a dedicated funding source for Public Transit systems throughout the Commonwealth. 
             We have been following the recent court case where the City of Philadelphia has sued SEPTA in an effort to save transfers.  As we made clear in our testimony and letters, we believe transfers are necessary and should be kept.
             In last Saturday’s Philadelphia Inquirer you were quoted as saying that SEPTA has conducted studies showing that the elimination of transfers will not disproportionately hurt low income and minority riders.  This appears to contradict the testimony of your witness, John McGee, who said that no such studies had been done.
 We are now calling upon you to release the studies you mentioned in the Inquirer.  As the studies were paid for with public dollars and greatly affect the public, we feel strongly that they should be part of the public discourse. Riders have a vested interest in this matter and should be allowed to see the reasoning behind SEPTA’s attempt to eliminate transfers.
            As you well know, SEPTA would have not received the funding it needed from Harrisburg without a great show of public support.  We can envision a time in the future when SEPTA will, once again, need the public, including the many people represented by the Pennsylvania Transit Coalition, to champion the cause of mass transit.  Releasing the studies now would go a long way to ensuring ongoing public support for SEPTA. 
                                                                                   
Patrick Eiding and Tom Paine Cronin
Co-Chairs
Pennsylvania Transit Coalition

why do we have to raise fares?

Marc, you say:

We have to reduce reliance on fares but we have to ask riders to pay some share of the cost. That's partly for political reasons as we can't get funding from Harrisburg without some money coming from the fare box. And partly it is a matter of fairness. People who benefit from public services should pay part of the cost in some rough proportion to the benefit they receive.

People who ride on SEPTA do already pay a fair share for transit cost. People who ride on highways every day do not pay as big a share of the cost of their commute as we do. That is NOT fair.

Why should anyone who rides SEPTA ask for a fare hike?

Maybe you see the value "politically," but why should any rider? Why not just keep the pressure on SEPTA to provide better service and NOT raise fares and see how much more trouble we can get them in? They are already being forced to back down on transfers.

Correct me if I am wrong (as if i have to ask...) but Plan A and Plan B and all that pre-legislative fix stuff are irrelevant now right? If a true hole exists in the SEPTA budget after transfers are NOT eliminated, let's see it and then discuss what to do rather than capitulating to a fare hike now. SEPTA riders still pay more than almost anyone else in the country for public transit, despite being in a one of the largest public transit systems in the country. Seriously, why should we have our fares hiked?

Exactly. Open the books,

Exactly. Open the books, and lets see the exact amount of this budget hole. I am not sure why a (still) underfunded system that serves a lot of poor folks should raise its fares. (I know the legislator wanted it, but, game over.) Anyway, we pay a lot; with some creative ideas, maybe they dont need to go up at all; or very little.

Time for SEPTA to open the books.

We already have raised fares

and doing so was a precondition on the part of the General Assembly for getting roughly 150 million for the current fiscal year from the state which will go up to about 225 million a year in ten years.

If you want to try to undo that deal and try some other way to get this kind of funding from the state, go ahead and start lobbying. But you are wasting your time and, if anyone were to take yo seriously, would run the risk of losing what some of us worked five years to achieve.

Now the immediate question is this: SEPTA first claimed that it needed 29 million in fare increases this year and then changed that to 35 million in May. And it has offered three figures for how much of that money was going to come from the elimination of transfers: 8, 10 to 11, and now between 5 and 10 million.

The city needs to insist that SEPTA come clean about all of this and provided detailed information about (1) what it is getting from the state and (2) how much more it needs to balance the budget this year and (3) how much it would get from eliminating tranfers. And then we can talk about whether some additional fare increases are needed in order to keep transfers.

I want to emphasize, however, that it is not in anyone's interest to stop all fare increases if that means the system is underfunded. If we want to have a good transit system we have to take four important things into consideraton aside from the political necessities of getting continued state funding.

1. One reason that SEPTA's numbers are slippery is that each operating budget should include a certain amount of money for maintenance and SEPTA has been deferring a great deal of maintenance over the years. This is a disastrous policy. For example, if SEPTA had the money to maintain the El starting about fifteen years ago, we wouldn't have needed most of the massive rebuilding project. I would rather see SEPTA spend more money than less on maintenance and repairs, both because that would improve on-time performance as well as deal with long term issues.

2. Fares have not been increased since 2001 and a 11% fare increase now is under the rate of inflation for the last 6 years. Since delays in fare increases eats into he SEPTA budget after taking into account inflation, and larger fare increases are harde for the poor to deal with than smaller ones, everyone would benefit if SEPTA raised fares more rather than less often and by smaller rather than larger percentages.

3. A very large percentage of the SEPTA budget goes to the labor force. Just as progressive argue against cutting taxes in part because we want to be fair to city workers, we have to insure that SEPTA can continue to pay an appropriate level of wages and provide health care benefits for its workers.

4. Improving and expanding the sytem will be a major stimulus to economic growth.

So, while it sounds great for progressives to say we won't ever accept a fare increase, it is not in anyone's interest to take that stand. And that's why the folks who have been leading the transit coalition--some of the most progressive consumer advocates and labor leaders in the city--did not complain about the 11 percent fare increase. Instead, we complained about the unfairness of that increase.

I guess you missed the

I guess you missed the beginning and the end of the comment, where I said it is time to open the books before saying anything about a fare hike.

As for numbers 1-4... Do you think you need to convince people here that TWU members should be well paid? Or that transit stimulates the economy?

Well if it is not a useful reminder

then I'm sorry for making those four points. I wouldn't want to break the YPP rule against restating the obvious.

However, I do think it is useful to remind people, like Ray, who seem to be ready to denounce any fare increases because they hurt poor people that if we put money into this transit system in the right places the poor will benefit fare more than anyone else and that it is the poor who have suffered more than anyone else from deferred mainteance or that 70 to 80% of SEPTA expenses go to wages. It is easy to be shortsighted about these sorts of issues, just focus on one side of a complicated matter, and say that because fare increases are painful we should never accept them.

This is a common error on the left, by they way. We sometime focus too much what we ask of the poor in terms of taxes or paying for services instead of looking at the overall impact of government on raising (we hope) the well being of the poor.

Ray took the broader view a year and a half ago when he criticized me, Lance Haver, and Jon Stein for supporting the Cohen Wage Tax Cut. He argued that we should not cut taxes on the working poor because tax cuts lead to a decline in city services and that the poor benefit from those services more than anyone else. That was a pretty good argument, although, in that situation, I thought there were compelling arguments on the other side as well. It was a close call, though.

And I also think it is useful to point to what we should be looking for when SEPTA opens its books. But, again, if everyone knew these details , I'm sorry for mentioning them again.

Why should we raise fares?

Marc, restating the obvious is a common trait of YPP posters, though you do have a special touch for telling us stuff we already know like it's new. Of course SEPTA needs more money. Whether or not it goes toward improving the system in a timely fashion or not is a matter of debate. Fact is, SEPTA is more often than not an enemy of riders.

There are many great TWU members who drive and operate token booths and more on the system, but at this moment in time, we are not negotiating with them, we are negotiating with managers who come from a cess pool of Republican patronage. Until the SEPTA board is re-formed (something I hope Mayor Street and soon to be Mayor Nutter can work on in late December when the city's leases expire with SEPTA), I will treat the board and administration at SEPTA like an enemy until they prove otherwise through their actions.

Since SEPTA has not provided any solid numbers about its operating funds why should we, the riders, EVER, ask for a fare hike?

And Marc you are right to identify poverty and economic justice as consistent concerns of mine as an individual, but in this instance i am not just concerned about poor people, I am not poor, but I do not want a fare hike, As someone who rides SEPTA a lot, I don't want to pay extra. Beyond me or poor people, there are a lot of working Philadelphians and a lot of young Philadelphians who rely on SEPTA and should not pay more for the same service we get now. Especially since we pay more than almost anyone else on the nation for a transit system of our size.

Lastly, comparing fare hikes and tax cuts for the poor is comparing apples and oranges. Taxes are paid based on income or the sale of goods or property, Generally they are paid into a general fund which is then allocated through a legislative process open to pressure and input from constituents. I think taxes should be levied fairly and that all politicians should stop talk about cutting them and instead focus on imposing them fairly. That is why I was against the Cohen wage tax cut--I thought it was a case of progressives getting hysterical and giving over to tax cut fervor at the risk of undercutting the revenue base.

Unlike taxes, SEPTA fares do go not go to a general fund, they are not allocated in an open, legislative process, and they are not paid universally. They are only paid by riders. Compared to comparable fees-for-service like the gas tax, SEPTA riders already pay a higher percentage for their transportation. Raising fares is unfair and unprincipled. Public transportation is a public service--like airlines and roads--and it deserves to be heavily subsidized--like airlines and roads. Period.

Again, why should transit riders weaken their own position when SEPTA is already in a bad spot and ASK for fare hikes? That just seems like a bad negotiation tactic to me.

Boiling down the question

I couldn't really figure out how to ask this, and then Ray did very clearly and eloquently.

I'd like to second the basic question, though not combatively: why? What's the rationale for riders or riders' representatives accepting or asking for a (even relatively small) fare hike?

Let me try again

A lot of you are misunderstanding the situation in which we find ourselves.

SEPTA has raised fares in accord with a proposal that the PTC, DVARP, other transit activists and the City of Philadelphia believe to be grossly unfair to the poor and working people and counter-productive to our goal of increasing transit ridership.

A court has blocked the most objectionable part of the fare increase, the elimination of transfers. We have no guarantee that higher courts will not overturn Judge DiVito’s injunction. There are a lot of complicated legal issues in this case. While Mark Zecca skillfully introduced some new grounds for court action, the legal standard under which courts are allowed to block SEPTA’s action have, in previous case law, be highly restrictive. More importantly, SEPTA’s political influence over the judiciary is likely to be greater the higher up the court system we move.

So some of us have been urging the City to settle with SEPTA and agree to block the elimination of transfers and, to make up for lost revenues—how much we will see when SEPTA opens its books—and instead raise tokens and cash fares a small amount. This is totally in keeping with what we have been saying all along, that our objection has not been to a fare increase but to a fare increase that is grossly unfair to the poor, African Americans, and residents of the city. Mayor Street said at a SEPTA Board meeting a few months ago, and reiterated at a press conference yesterday that he does not object to a fair, 11% across the board fare increase and that the city has never sought to block any fare increase at all.

So it is not as if we are saying just telling SEPTA to raise fares. We are trying to create a fare structure with some semblance of fairness. If the City and SEPTA do not settle along the lines I have suggested, we might well wind up with no tranfers. And that would be really bad for reasons I think we all know by now.

Now that is the crux of the issue, which I thought people here understood. The other points I have been making have been in explanation of why we have not been opposing fare increase at all.

I frankly don’t understand why someone is surprised that transit activists would not oppose a fare increase. Indeed, I find the idea that we should always oppose fare increase bizarre.

Not two weeks ago progressives here and elsewhere were bemoaning our lack of spending on roads and bridges and our failure to properly fund the public sector. So how come, when it comes to SEPTA, people here think the answer is, in DEII’s words, “not to reward bad behavior.” Why not accept the same principle when it comes to roads and bridges? We know, for example, that agencies in most states have favored new building instead of maintenance. So why don’t we tell those agencies that we won’t reward bad behavior by giving them new funding or allowing them to toll roads until they have fixed all the roads and bridges? The reasons are that, first, they need the money to make repairs and second, do need to keep building at least some new roads and bridges.

I know it is easy to hate SEPTA. I have a lot more experience in dealing with the agency than most of you, as both a rider and an activist. There are a lot of good people at SEPTA but the culture of the agency is horrible and its ability to work with riders and activists is almost nil. But it is not the case the SEPTA is grossly inefficient—numerous audits over the last few years have shown that. But it does have a serious deferred maintenance problem. And while SEPTA needs dramatic reforms, those will be much easier to make if it is not hurting for money.

So why don’t we just demand more public funding and oppose all fare increases? Mostly because we are not in a position to get more than we already got, at least right now, and because the public funding we got required some fare increases (and Ray, you are not stupid so you know that this requirement is not part of the legislation.) But also because most of us think that the costs of running a transit system should be shared by those who ride and by the public. There is a long story about why that is so but it basically comes down to three things: equity between transit users and those who use other modes of transportation; efficiency in the use of transit resources; and insuring that the system is funded enough to provide the public benefits of transit.

So while most transit activists would want to increase the share of public funding even further and we would oppose a totally out of proportion fare increase—and have been working against an unfair one—few of us think that opposing an 11% across the board increase after six years of no increases is out of proportion especially when one recognizes that it comes along with a major and almost incredible achievement, the most dramatic infusion of state funds into public transit in at least twenty-five years.

And if you all check the facts you would see that even if the token went up to $1.40 SEPTA would no longer be overpriced compared to its competitors and that with the new state funding SEPTA will be in about the middle of the pack when it comes to the percentage of operating costs that come from the fare box. I don't have the detailed numbers yet but when the full funding kicks in, we will have dramatically increased the share of funding that is subsidized by taxes. In other words, in teh last few months we have made major steps towards attaining the goal Ray like everyone else thinks should be our prime objective.

I suppose that some people think that defending riders means always opposing fare increases and that supporting consumers always means opposing all price increases. That seems to me to be misguided. A cheap transit system that breaks down all the time or that is too small for the region it serves is no bargain. And consumer activists have continually called for legislation that raises the price consumers pay, such as consumer protection legislation, health and safety regulations for workers, and restraints on the development of big box stores. The price of goods, and especially public goods like transit, is only one among other important concerns. Transit advocates should, much of the time, lean against fare increases if only to keep the pressure on for more public funding. But if we want to be effective we also have to pay attention to the economic and political circumstances in which we are working.

Not two weeks ago

Not two weeks ago progressives here and elsewhere were bemoaning our lack of spending on roads and bridges and our failure to properly fund the public sector. So how come, when it comes to SEPTA, people here think the answer is, in DEII’s words, “not to reward bad behavior.” Why not accept the same principle when it comes to roads and bridges? We know, for example, that agencies in most states have favored new building instead of maintenance. So why don’t we tell those agencies that we won’t reward bad behavior by giving them new funding or allowing them to toll roads until they have fixed all the roads and bridges? The reasons are that, first, they need the money to make repairs and second, do need to keep building at least some new roads and bridges.

In the words of your buddy Lou Agre, Marc, you are a real card! I mean, this was such a goofy and absurd statement, especially from someone who knows about the gross disparities btw funding for bridges/roads/cars vs. public transit. I will just assume it is a joke.

Why don't you answer the point

instead of just insulting me?

The point is that public goods need to be funded. And we progressives have to defend the necessity of funding them even when those public agencies screw up. DE and others were saying that we shouldn't fund SEPTA because its service is not as good as it should be. I was answering his point. What's wrong with my argument.

Obviously we want more money for transit as opposed to roads and bridges and more public funding as opposed to funding from the fare box. B

It was funny. You seemed to

It was funny. You seemed to effectively be comparing people who don't want a public transit fare increase to Grover Norquist- starve the beast types. I mean, I only know DE a little bit, but I wrote the post you were talking about, and it seemed and seems like a really strange comparison. And it seemed like another round of your 'lessons for progressives.'

I dont think DE was saying to starve SEPTA, I think he was saying that they should be responsive, open up the books, etc. Which is pretty reasonable sounding to me. But I guess he can answer for himself.

Speaking for myself

(although I'm sure I'd get further in life if I had Dan around to speak for me regularly), I don't have the time to do the digging now, but when Ray posted about the cost of SEPTA service it jibed my my recollections about comparitive studies I've seen of the public transportation systems of different cities around the country: the point being that SEPTA does not stack up very well.

I don't doubt that you're more familiar with SEPTA's comparative efficiencies in delivering services than I am, and your posts about the fares in various cities would suggest that my recolection was wrong or out-of-date - but I remain skeptical. It is my common-sense analysis that SEPTA does a relatively poor job in using its revenues compared to the other public transportation systems I've used.

So, unless you can provide me with some more definitive information, or at least tell me that you've studied the comparitive systems extensively and can state categorically that SEPTA is at least in the middle of the pack, once again, I think raising fares before demanding an open process in looking at how increased revenues would be utilized is putting the cart before the horse.

That's not to say that I don't recognize the validity of your larger argument - that we can't expect SEPTA to get better without being realistic about the associated costs and the needed means to raise the funds. I understand the questions you raise about political realities. But I don't think being realistic about those issues and demanding a more open process are, in any way whatsoever, mutually exclusive.

No they are not mutually exclusive

and if the City actually decides to try to settle the suit I would hope they iniste on a more open process.

As for how efficient SEPTA is, you might want to look at the Governor's transit Reform Commission report at http://www.dot.state.pa.us/Internet/pdCommissCommitt.nsf/

The report indicates that by most customary standards such as operating costs per passenger mile, etc. SEPTA is reasonably efficient and better than a lot of agencies. The Federal Transportation Administratio reports these measures for all systems in the country --I can't seem to find a link to their site now but it didn't take me long to find it a few years ago. I was surprised when I first looked at the federal government's statistic to see how well SEPTA looks on paper.

SEPTA's labor costs are also right about in the middle.

SEPTA is always accused of being top heavy but that is not my experience. I have a friend who worked in the government and public relations department fifteen years ago. They now have a fraction of the number of people who worked there. In fact Ithink they spend too little money in this area. They make almost no effort to find out what transit riders think about service.

That is not to say that everything is hunky-dory. It is not. SEPTA badly manages capital projects--witness the El reconstruction project. It has also been criticized for insisting on using its own designs for cars, such as those on the high-speed line, instead of using off the shelf rolling stock that has proven itself in practice. Labor-management relations could use a lot of improvement as my friends at local 234 of the TWU always remind me.

But day to day operations seem to be reasonably efficient or even less costly than other systems. Perhaps with a little more funding--and a transit riders group to watch over them--SEPTA could increase cleanllines standards to what we would like.

Marc, you did not answer the question

I would never presume to speak for DE, but he and others have asked are SEPTA fares in line with other agencies acorss the country. I did not see you answer that.

In the last fare hike, I say for sure, but I think token prices did go up since th base fare went from $1.50 to $2,00 and the current price per token is $1.30.

Look down a bit and you will see my answer

If one looks at the fare for a single trip, SEPTA fares are below that of most other major transit agencies. I don't think you would find that they are higher in most other fare categories.

And this too!

Also, Marc, by the way, yes, no far increases for 6 years.

But, as you probably know, in June of 2001 the far was 1.60 cash, and 40 cents for a transfer. They then jacked the rates to an incredible degree. In fact, it appeared that they may have raised it all the way to 2 insead of to 1.90, because in the words of SEPTA board member Christian DiCicco, who has all that change?

By inflation from that point, the fare today would be $1.88, and 47 cents respectively. I mean, I know it all depends on what your starting point is, but it is a strange tactic to put the stats in the most favorable light possible for SEPTA. How about the midpoint between that fare increase (2001) and the earlier one (1995). The cash fare today, inflation adjusted, would be... $2.04.

I don't know about you, but back in '01, I didn't think of SEPTA as a bargain. And I would bet that many people felt and feel the same way.

What was the price of a token in 2001 and 1995?

That is the more relevant comparison.

Considering SEPTA doesnt

Considering SEPTA doesnt even have token machines at all the subway stops, and people in neighborhoods can have a lot of trouble buying tokens, it is still pretty relevant.

I may be wrong

but I actually don't think that many people pay with cash. The price differential is great enough that even I can remember to load up on tokens when I find a place that sells them. And I'm pretty absent-minded.

Can you easily find the token prices in 95 and 01 or tell me where I can?

the bottom line on this debate

Marc, here's where you lost me:

I know it is easy to hate SEPTA. I have a lot more experience in dealing with the agency than most of you, as both a rider and an activist.

There are a lot of us who have been riding SEPTA for a long time, who now ONLY rely on SEPTA and have VERY strong feelings about SEPTA.

You came on YPP and presented the PTC's position on the lawsuit and possible settlement and you seem surprised that a lot of us don't agree with the solutions you have posed. What you are finding out is that there a lot of pissed off riders who have never been asked and never had a chance to tell anyone what they think of SEPTA and some of it is getting taken out on you. You ran a campaign for city council based on grassroots principles so you of all people should know that if your base has not been engaged and been made to feel as though their opinions are meaningful, they won't be with you.

On to the matter at hand, SEPTA has been saying different things about how much money it needs. Before anyone talks about alternative revenue, the first thing that needs to occur is getting a real number. From there, options for finding more revenue should be discusesd.

A Groundswell of 3

is not exactly a grassroots uprising. You seem to forget that the PTC has an email list of 9000 people. And in addition, we have representatives of 20 or so major progressive organizations and labor unions on the list.

I've been updating them about twice a week for the last three or four weeks. I hear back from some folks everyday as my email address and phone number are on the emails I send. And I talk or email with a few riders almost every day. I have heard a great deal of support for our effort to save transfers--something it took you a some time to agree with. More than 600 people have signed our online petition against eliminating transfers. No one has responded to my recent email with any concern about a settlement along the lines I have proposed. I haven't heard of Mayor Street getting much flack for saying that an across teh board fare increase would be the city's preference.

So because you, Dan and DE disagree, should I and the people I've been in the trenches with for four years on transit funding change direction? If I thought your arguments were clearly correct I would---and I have been known to change my mind from time to time. But so far, it strikes me that your anger at SEPTA has lead you to the position of opposing a fare increase, come what may, without proposing any alternatives that would insure that we don't lose transfers. I understand you don't want to see your token price go up. But, you know, my train fare has increased and I'm not too happy about that. So has the price of transpasses. I'm sure people who use them are not happy either. Should public policy be based just on the aversion we all have to paying more for something? Is it right for you to escape a fare increase when people who use SEPTA more often are paying more?

By the way, wouldn't it make sense for you to use a pass instead of tokens, especially if you have to pay a cash fare once a week?

As 1/3 of the groundswell

I'd like to clarify what my perspective is.

I have no problem with focusing on the transfer elimination problem: never did.

I think that SEPTA should be fully accountable for how it conducts its business. I remember a while back hearing that relatively speaking, SEPTA does a poor job of delivering services relative to its fares. Especially if my memory is accurate, but even if it isn't (I'm not getting from your post you're saying that having studied the issue thoroughly, and you know that SEPTA matches up well with other, large city public transportation systems), I think that SEPTA should prove that the reason it needs to raise fares at this point isn't because of operational or other inefficiencies.

Otherwise, essentially, we have no way of knowing whether the increased fares are a short-term fix for a long-term problem. Accordingly, in the very least, it would seem to me that among their goals, transportation activists would consider the issue of transparency to be among the highest of priorities - and certainly a prerequisite to fare increases.

That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate your work or the work of PTC on transportation issues.

What Public Transit Costs Around the Country

Ray wrote:

“we pay more than almost anyone else on the nation for a transit system of our size.”

Looking at the cheapest single fare you can get, which in some cases requires using a electronic fare card not cash: New York’s base fare is $2.00. Chicago’s base fare is $1.75. Atlanta’s base fare is $1.75. Boston’s base fare is $1.70. In Seattle it is $1.50 during peak periods and $1.25 off-peak. San Francisco’s Muni is $1.50 In Charlotte it is $1.30. LA’s is $1.25 In Dallas the base fare is $1.25.

Our token price is $1.30. An increase to $1.40 would keep us below all of them except Charlotte, LA and Dallas. There are plans to raise fares in LA this year and most likely the other cities will go up as well in the next year or two.

SF

I can't speak for all of those cities, but in SF you get one free transfer. So in effect, it's still 40 cents cheaper with two vehicles.

DC is $1.35, I think

DC was $1.10 when I left in 2002, but it's gone up. They had free transfers, but those were pretty widely abused. You couldn't go to any subway stop without someone asking you to get a transfer and then hand it out the window to them.

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BradyDale OnLine
The R.I.I.C. Blog
The Philadelphia Unemployment Project

our base fare is too high

Philadelphia's base fare is too high. I belive there are free transfers in NYC from subway to bus, and even if they are not you can a lot further on your $2. Their $2 fare is newer...we have had one since 2001 and it only goes up.

It's eays to buy a bag of tokens and hang on to it when you ride once or twice a week, but I ride every day and frequently screw up and use my last token on the ride home (and I can only buy tokens at one place within walking distance from my house and they cost $1.0 each cause they are illegal). I probably pay the base fare in cash at least once a week or two. Beyond which, you can not just write off the base fare. If we raise the base fare, it will be very easy for SEPTA to raise token prices next time. Not to mention the fact that occasional riders should not have to pay so much more than token users.

Transfers are 25 cents in NY unless you have a metro card

Transfers are 25 cents in NY unless you have a metro card. So $1.90 for a token and transfer here and $2.00 or $2.25 in NY. That's pretty close.

The comparison with tokens makes more sense than with cash fares. All the data I gave above was for the cheapest single ride fare so that, for example, in Boston I gave the fare for a single ride using a Charlie Card. (I'm not even sure you can use cash in Boston.) I really don't think very many people pay cash on SEPTA. I spent a lot of time hanging out in stations and I rarely saw people use cash intead of a token. And that's true for occassional riders, too.

Of course, one of our biggest problems is that SEPTA loses lots of occasional riders just because it is so hard to get tokens. That's another good reason why we need to move to an electronic fare syste ASAP. My guess is that SEPTA simply has no clue how many more riders they would have if everyoen could easily pay the 1.30 instead of 2.00.

clarifying Marc's points

#1 You say:

and doing so was a precondition on the part of the General Assembly for getting roughly 150 million for the current fiscal year from the state which will go up to about 225 million a year in ten years.

If you want to try to undo that deal and try some other way to get this kind of funding from the state, go ahead and start lobbying...

Is that in writing? You are saying that the Gen Assembly will take back their money if SEPTA does not raise the base fare after being forced to not eliminate transfers by the city? Can you show us in writing where the legislation says that?

#2- You say:

Fares have not been increased since 2001 and a 11% fare increase now is under the rate of inflation for the last 6 years. Since delays in fare increases eats into he SEPTA budget after taking into account inflation, and larger fare increases are harde for the poor to deal with than smaller ones, everyone would benefit if SEPTA raised fares more rather than less often and by smaller rather than larger percentages

The 2001 fare increase was huge. Base fares went from $1.50 to $2.00. A 1/3 increase. So fuck inflation, added with an 11% fare hike, on the whole, SEPTA riders will still be paying too much for service and more than many other city dwellers pay for comparable tranist systems across the country. I am NOT unconditionally against fare hikes, but when a large republican-controlled agency is already in a weakened position, why would a group representing riders EVER ask for a fare hike. Let them ask for one and then negotiate with us about its implementation.

#3- Finally, You say:

Improving and expanding the sytem will be a major stimulus to economic growth.

Come on Marc, just us chickens here. Do you really believe that a fare hike ostensibly being used to fill holes in operating budget monies is going to spur any growth, let alone "major stimulus" and an expansion of the system?

Why can't we just all get along?

Marc, given that as Ray says, Philadelphians are currently paying more for less than transit riders in other cities - do you really think that there's any justification for fare hikes before SEPTA can prove that there are valid reasons for the low rate of return on citizens' investment?

How do you expect long-term improvement if SEPTA is simply "rewarded for bad behavior" (I hate that term, but it is appropriate here).

Is there really an argument here? This is a relatively simple question, and doesn't require a lecture on the strategic missepts of the "left."

Evidence?

Ray, do you actually have any evidence for the noton that "people who ride on highways do not pay as big a share of the cost their commute as we do."

I think this is true but only if one includes all the externalities with regard to travel by car: the costs of pollution, sprawl, auto accidents and so forth.

If you exclude those externalities, I would be surprised if you are correct. I guess you don't own a car, so you might not know that they are pretty expensive as is gas and insurance. And people who travel on the roads do pay a "fare" in that they pay gas taxes, the costs of registration, etc.

I hope you are right because I have argued for years while lobbying members of the General Assembly and debating opponents of transit funding that automobile travel is far more subsidized than most of us realize. But it never occured to me to argue that is more heavily subsidized than public transit. So if you have some evidence I'd like to know what it is.

Honest Question

Sure, taking away externalities, you might be right. But, how do you price global warming?

It is a tough calculation

But if we had the numbers for the things that are easily priced, then the larger claim would be more plausible.

There are some pretty good economic models that enable us to calculate a rough price for some externatlities. For example, I think we can come up with a rough calculation of the costs to economic growth of sprawl. And we can also calculate the costs of building new sub-divisions instead of rebuilding old cities. Thee costs of hospital bills and lost wages due to car accidents are calculable.

The hard stuff is global warming and the aesthetic value of open space.

Externalities?

I'm having a bit of a hard time understanding the concept of "externalities" here. Are you saying that the enormous costs of treating casualties from auto accidents, pollution, etc., are somehow less relevant than the costs of building and maintaining roads to a debate about whether people driving their own autombilies are more or less subsidized by the government than public transportation riders?

First, I don't quite understand why some costs are being considered more external than others. Second, I'm not sure I get why trying to make those distinctions is relevant: Even if we could somehow conceptually isolate the cost of owning and operating a car from the other "subsidized" costs of auto transportation - how is it relevant in the real world to divorce the relative disadvantages of auto travel (pollution, loss of producivity due to traffic, urban sprawl, etc) as compared to the advantages/disadvantages of funding public transportation?

Externalities

It is an economist's concept. Internal costs are those that have to be born by the agency or business that provides a good or service or the consumers that pay the cost of the business or service. The costs of driving include internal costs like paying for a car and external costs like pollution. Good government regulation can internalize some of the external costs by, for example, requiring pollution controls on cars that raise the price of cars or requiring everyone to have insurance that pays for medical care.

The distinction is important because if one doesn't recognize and internalize the external costs in some way, than goods are underpriced. If, for example, if everyone paid the full costs of driving a car, including the external costs, driving would be more expensive and more people would take public transit.

So my point is not that external costs are less relevant but rather the opposite. They are incredibly relevant and we often forget how great they are. But some of them are, as my previous post indicated, hard to measure.

Opponents of public transit often forget those costs when they say that public transportation is heavily subsidized but transportation by car is not. I once debated a conservative activist on radio times about this and slammed him with a list of ten or so external costs of automobile transportation that he was neglecting.

So what I was asking Ray for was some evidence to use in future debates of this sort. And i was questioning whether Ray meant to include external as well as internal costs when saying that car travel was subsidized. If he had a reason to think that it was subsidized when looking only at internal costs, I wanted to know what that was because that would strengthen the argument I ususally make with people who hate public transit.

And you know what they say about economists theories, right?

I like the cartoon with a couple of economists standing in front of a complicated formula on a blackboard. The caption: "If we could just eliminate human beings from this equation, it would predict future economic trends perfectly."

I am familiar with the term from economics. But my point remains. In this case, since those "external" costs are never uncoupled from the "internal" costs in reality, I don't see any functional reason to do so theoretically. As you suggest, one of the reasons we have such poor public transportation in this country is because those cost factors are not seen as being necessarily linked.

I see you point: that being able to say that the "internal" costs of automobile driving are higher than the "internal" costs of public transportation would be an arrow in your quiver. But I'm saying that I don't think that it reflects any form of reality anyway, so why even go there?

They are uncoupled in reality

and that's the big problem. This happens when one can avoid paying for the external costs of one's actions. If everyone who contributed to greenhouse gases received a bill every month for our share, then we would all have an incentive to take public transit rather than drive because the driver's bill would be much higher than the transit rider's bill.

The task of good public policy is to link external and internal costs--that is, to internalize those costs--so that the actions that people have incentives to act in ways that minimize not just their individual costs but the social costs of their action

Evidence?

Ray, do you actually have any evidence for the noton that "people who ride on highways do not pay as big a share of the cost their commute as we do."

I think this is true but only if one includes all the externalities with regard to travel by car: the costs of pollution, sprawl, auto accidents and so forth.

If you exclude those externalities, I would be surprised if you are correct. I guess you don't own a car, so you might not know that they are pretty expensive as is gas and insurance. And people who travel on the roads do pay a "fare" in that they pay gas taxes, the costs of registration, etc.

I hope you are right because I have argued for years while lobbying members of the General Assembly and debating opponents of transit funding that automobile travel is far more subsidized than most of us realize. But it never occured to me to argue that is more heavily subsidized than public transit. So if you have some evidence I'd like to know what it is.

Cost of Driving Calculation

There is a calculator at http://www.commutesolutions.org/calc.htm that calculates the cost of a commute. It is run bythe Santa Cruz County Regional Transportation Commission. There costs are broken down as a per mile calculation. Obviously some of the costs will vary based on region, location, etc. and some costs are fixed costs, such as insurance, which while it will vary based on how many miles you drive annually, will still have a certain cost regardless of if you drive 1 mile per year or 30,000 miles per year. Also, some of the costs the calculator has as being direct driver expenses will tend to veiwed by drivers as being fixed costs and not in cost per mile terms as they are paid periodically (1 - 12 times a year) (e.g. insurance) or as atypical events (accident). Also, some expenses, such as depreciation are generally not viewed as being a direct driver expense by most drivers. Finally, some direct driver expenses will not apply in every case, such as residential parking or finance charges.

So, when I ran the numbers and factored in the following:

  1. 20 miles round trip to work.
  2. Working 5 days a week.
  3. 0 non commuter miles
  4. $0.00 finance charge
  5. $0.00 depreciation
  6. $0.00 residential parking
  7. $0.00 parking and tolls
  8. $0.00 accidents

The rest of the costs I factored in using the defaults from the calculator. The results were:

$0.21 per mile for driver direct expenses and $0.33 for societal expenses for a total of $0.54 a mile. If I assume the cost of SEPTA is $1.50 (I realize the fare cost varies based on token/pass/cash) per bus ride and assume the same 20 miles round trip to work, the cost per mile is $0.15 a mile assuming 10 miles per trip and two fares, one way to work, and one way home.) Thus transit wins over the cost of driving, even when only inlcuding direct driver costs. When I factor in societal costs and parking/depreciation/finance charges, transit really wins.

Wow

Managing to pull that up surpasses even the 'bike-friendly cities' and 'state laws on abortion before Roe' moments of internet magic.

Thanks that's great

This will be very helpful.

Of course the calculator is not taking into account one of the social costs of public transit, the large subsidy that comes through taxes. But if you assume that your fare covers only a third of the cost of a transit ride, transit still wins.

There are other direct costs and benefis to different forms of transit: For public transit there are the benefits of socializing with people and / or having time to get some work done. For automobile transit there are the benefits of not having to meet a fixed timetable.

It is useful to think through all of these because that would give us some ideas about how to make transit more attractive. Imagine, for example, wi-fi on buses and trains. What would be the benefit of that?

BTW how do you aovid parking and tolls? If I were doing this, I'd have to add parking tickets.

marc, you misunderstand

i was only comparing subsides give to drivers vs. tranist users. Externalities don't count since drivers get to choose what gas to buy, what car to buy, what insurance to use, etc. The only comparison that matters in terms of state and local government is taxes, fees, tolls and fares, and I am pretty confident that the base fares and tokens and passes cost more than the taxes and tolls and fee drivers pay. The example that ELP gives above assumes that riders travel 10 miles a day, but I think if you looked at the whole of ridership in teh city each day you'll see a much lower average one-way trip.

one more thing on externalities

the cost calculation above is only looking at people using SEPTA to get to work. for people who don't own cars at all, there are other externalities like cabs, rental cars, Car Share, gas money to friends, bike maintenance, etc.

That comparison doesn't make sense

You said that people who use car for transportation are more heavily subsidized than people who use public tranist. Leaving aside externalities such as sprawl, global warming, etc. you aave to look at how much the government subsidizes each transit trip as opposed to each automoblies trip. So you have to look at the total cost of each trip and then look at how much of the trip is subsidized by the government through general revenues and how much is paid by the individual.

Fares, tokens and passes are the costs that individuals pay to use public transit. Taxes, tolls and fees are only a small portion of the cost that individuals pay to use cars. If you don't include the cost of buying, insuring, and gassing up a car, you are comparing apples and oranges.

Cars, gas, insurance are not externalities at all but internal costs for people who use cars.

I don't know how the numbers would come out. As I said, I'm inclined to think that travel by car is subsidized by the government at least as much if not more than travel by public transit. Even if you assume that the roads built with gas tax money are being paid for by driers roughly in proportion to their use of the roads, local roads, snow plowing, traffic enforcement and the like all come out of general revenues.

At any rate, if you had some evidence about this, rather than just suppositions, it would be really useful to see it.

Parking and Tools

I left parking and tools out of the calculation to avoid any debate about people that do not pay them and to show a more conservative (lower) number for driving to show that transit still would win even if I left out some costs that could be argued are reasonable costs for driving in many situations.

not a fight I'm up nights about but

...let me just say that I'm an occassional rider and if you made SEPTA FREE I wouldn't ride it any more than I already do. I hate waiting. I hate the uncertainty. I hate getting jostled around and I hate feeling like I'm on a long elevator ride. That's why I don't use it. I don't think that this is an unusual attitude.

Plus I get Johnny Brenda's cred for having a fixed gear bike.

I guess I was saying in a humorous way what Marc's saying. Harrisburg wanted to see a fare increase and the right place to do it was probably the cash fare, maybe a smaller increase in the token. Dunno.

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BradyDale OnLine
The R.I.I.C. Blog
The Philadelphia Unemployment Project

yea, but we pulled a fast one

i get it brady. but raising fares won't bring more occasional rider into the system. and a lot of occasional riders are seasonal riders who may iin fact try to drive in snow vs. ride SEPTA if the fare is too high.

that's neither here nor there. you are right. the Leg did want a fare hike. SEPTA promised one. we got the money we needed. the Leg can't pull that money back now because SEPTA lost a law suit initaed by the city. in short, we can pull a fast one and NOT have a fare hike now if we don't want to.

why should we raise our fares if we don't have to? it sucks that they are already so high, and Lance and the city did a great job using a lawsuit to force SEPTA's hand. Now that we got them where we want them, let's chill and see if we can avoid a fare hike too.

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