Remember the heady days of the pre-primary run up? Dan and Sam Durso with their Battles Royale, representatives from numerous campaigns posting almost daily, updates of updates of updates of policy statements, daily policy debates about the intricacies of the BPT and stop-and-frisk and congestion taxes, insults galore and shills by the dozen, and last but not least, frequent posts from elected officials and candidates running to replace them.
Not that I'm complaining about the quality of YPP discussions since that time, but I'm wondering about the implications of the changes that have occured in the general nature of the dialogue here - and one change in particular: why has the apparent interest in YPP on the part of elected officials dropped off so significantly?
I remember commenting in one post back then that I was favorably impressed that elected officials were coming on to YPP to discuss issues, get feedback on their proposals, explain their thinking. Someone responded that I shouldn't get carried away - afterall it was election time. Good point. I responded that we'll just have to see what happens after the election. Well, in one sense the election will be over tomorrow, but in another sense it was over after the primary.
You might think that the candidates and elected officials have stopped posting at YPP because they were only after YPPers' votes - they don't really care about what YPPers think in the long run. But is the YPP voting block really significant enough to justify the amount of energy that went into writing all those posts? On the other hand, if they do really care about what YPPers think, and if they weren't just after votes - then why have they disappeared post primary?
Whatever the reasons, I'm disappointed that we've seen such a dropoff. It was my hope that a place like YPP could be a new methodology for responsible elected officials to reach out to the public, to help create a more active citizenry, to show some of that oft proclaimed transparency and accountability.
Of course, it's never too late. Maybe tomorrow, once all the votes are counted, those very special YPPers will come back in the fold?
If You Want Elected Officials To Post, Ask Them
Those who want elected officials to post should ask them to do so. Those who want more dialogue with elected officials should seek a tone of constructive engagement with them, and not the tone of embittered attack that so often characterizes dialogue here. I apparently have a far greater tolerance for it than anyone else in Philadelphia politics, but I would far prefer to be one of a significant sized group of elected officials commenting here than the only one.
hell is close to freezing over
Just wanted to recognize the rare moment of agreement between myself and Rep. Cohen.
Not to mention, I find it particularly ironic that this post was written by D.E.II - the YPPer most prone to throw around "-ist" accusations whenever addressing the merits of a person's argument fails to serve his purposes.
Seriously though, I think the biggest reason why participation in YPP has waned is the perception that the "dialogue" on this site suffers from a bad case of confirmation bias. The YPP dialogue consistently (1) ignores evidence that challenges the original speaker's conclusion; (2) personally attacks the speaker who brings forth evidence that does not confirm the original speaker's conclusion; or (3) does both.
All of which gets pretty tiresome after time.
My propensity for indiscriminate "isting" not withstanding *
I do appreciate your willingness to keep returning to this forum, Mark, despite the withering attacks you sometimes encounter.
I could be wrong, but I haven't seen Goode, Kenney, the other council candidate, or folks affiliated with other campaigns (with the exception of Ray), continue to contribute to discussions of policies or initiatives post-primary.
However, I don't think you're right about the reason why you and Mark Stier, and to a lesser extent Seth, are the only ones that remain active YPP contributors. Others didn't strike me as the shy and reticent type, and they generally seemed quite willing and able to mix it up with the best of 'em. And while of course everyone's subject to being resentful of criticism, isn't it the responsibility of any elected official to engage with their constituents to educate, if not necessarily to suffer abuse?
I think YPP represents an amazing forum for our representatives to go beyond sound bites and press releases, and to really get feedback from those whose interests they've been elected to promote.
If we all, myself included, try to be really, really, nice, is it unrealistic to think that politicians can help realize the empowering potential of this technology?
* except with DeWitt, in which case my "isting" was entirely justified.
I hope Jim Kenney comes back
I hope Wil Goode comes back, too. I just trust that he will.
If everyone tries too hard to be nice, no one will come back. Nice is boring.
If everyone, myself included, sticks to debating issues, and uses empowering technology to promote creative takes on issues, things will be ok.
Some men see things as they are and say, 'Why'? I dream of things that never were and say, 'Why not'?
Robert Kennedy, 1968
Oh yeah, and Vern
Oh yeah, and Vern.
People Should Be Thinking About What They Are For
Anyone who reads young philly politics will be able to compile a large list of things people are against, but only a much smaller list of things people are for.
Listing what you are for creates far more opportunities for collaboration than does listing what you are against, as well as a far more welcoming tone to others.
I think the making of the Inquirer into a warmer and less judgmental newspaper under its current leadership is a significant contributing factor to the 8,000 increase in its daily circulation announced in both papers today. For me that increased warmth is symbolized most clearly by the combination of an high praise obituary for city labor management negotiator Alan Davis and a high praise retirement story of labor leader Tom Cronin a few months later.
The old Inquirer would have used Cronin backers to savage Davis and Davis backers to savage Cronin; the current managment produced articles which noted criticism of both but placed that criticism in the context of the generally praiseworthy lives both Davis and Cronin led. The old management's focus was on being the hanging judge of the city; the new management seems to aspire to be an inclusive leader of the city. The latter is a much more effective way to build up readership and trust.
Catch 22
It's the Catch 22 of blogs, user groups, and groups in general. There is a certain equilibrium between success and the original intent of the group. Such a group can only grow so much and still stay true to its original principles. Once it is marked as a success, everyone jumps on the band wagon, and the original intent is lost.
Oh man, now it is going to look like I showed up just to
disagree with DeWitt.
I'd rather think of this post together with Dan's from today, and both of them as a challenge. Arguing about stop-and-frisk (um, for example) can fill whatever the virtual equivalent of pages or sheaves is. Same with all the aspects of those hotly contested elections a lot of us were working on.
What we are now facing, as Dan recognized (and Ray has been writing about), is a huge opportunity. A mayor with ambitious and mostly untested plans, and some great new councilpeople to add to the mix.
The goal for me anyway for a website like this is shifting some of that fire from the horse-race discussions (the mechanics and strategies of elections) to actual advocacy and critique of all the legislation, new programs, and reforms that we'll all be facing very soon.
I don't think the volume of discussion can be neatly deciphered: May was exciting and set expectations high, summer is hot and even if Dan texts a bunch of us at the shore with his best guilt trips to convince us to write not as much is gonna get put up, a ton of us have new and shifting personal and work commitments limiting what and how much we can say.
But I am excited (so damn nervous, but excited) for the moment of legislative possibility we are entering.
I should add
that the above is my goal because I am pretty dorky.
Where have you gone?
The only guy I really miss is Truthtold.
The serious bloggers among the candidates and elected officials -- Marc Stier, Mark Cohen, Seth Williams, Wilson Goode, Jim Kenney, and others are still around. And really, the posts from Fattah or Dwight Evans or whomever were nice, but they were campaign literature. Those guys never posted a lot.
I don't buy that the tone of attack sent those people away. During the election, when things were really brutal, they showed up. When the votes were counted, they moved on.
I'm glad the election brought me here. It's been nice.
--Tim
Truthtold
Tim,
I had the exact same reaction. The guy I miss is Truthtold. Like a lot of people, I skim these posts quickly. Just so many hours in day.
But I always slowed down to read Truthtold. I think he was the same guy who wrote the anonymous column in City Paper. I detected some stylistic similarities.
karen
I think Truthtold was a
I think Truthtold was a woman.
Hmm
I could say that by "guy" I meant "person," but I assumed that Truthtold was a "he" as well. Dan would probably know.
I think I miss him/her most, because it's pretty rare when bloggers/commenters actually have knowledge. ;-)
I mean, I think I'm a good writer and researcher, a pretty sharp thinker, and I've got some ideas, but I don't actually know very much. Truthtold was all of the above, and knew a lot about the city, its politics, and its political culture. That comes in handy when you have a group full of blowhards.
--Tim
No, actually, I have very
No, actually, I have very little idea who Truthtold is.
Wilson became kinder and gentler during the campaign
which was nice because I was a frequent target of his. But it did make life less exciting. Let's hope he wins big so that the old Wilson comes back on line.
I'm working for SEIU State Council. Nothing I write here should be attributed to SEIU, Neighborhood Networks, the Pennsylvania Transit Coaltion, the Minimum Wage Coaltion, West Mt. Airy Neighbors, the Merry Marvel Marching Society, or my uncle Sol. Warning: There be irony in these here parts.
Return of the Assholes!! That's what we need!!
Typecasting finally works in my favor!
Sweet!
Rubylegs, you ignorant slut, let's go at it! Whatcha wanna scrum over? If I can't argue with a Center City lawyer over something, what kind of a progressive (or Italian-American) am I?
(SARCASM WARNING: as DeWitt knows, I do not think he's an asshole. Me, on the other hand...)
Seriously, important elections create a special frisson when they're competitive; that frisson pumps adrenaline into political debates in a forum like this because--well, let's face it--real power is at stake. Elected officials enter those debates with special rigor because their jobs are at stake, or at least their friends' jobs. Remove that frisson, you remove the adrenaline, and sometimes you remove an elected official's interest in debating in a forum like this.
I feel like I've not been posting enough, not wanting to get into arguments as much as I had before. It's not like I feel any less passionate about things. It might just have been a Nutter Butter's exhaling after having spent his breath on the primary. I've even been self-editing to the extent that I have several things on my desktop that I chose not to post for one reason or other, some I can no longer recall the reason I wrote them at all.
(Does anyone know why I was moved to defend Oprah Winfrey in one such non-post?)
Anyway, good government and good democracy flourishes with good, interesting debate.
This is still the best place for it in the Home of American Democracy
Because, as we all know, Phillyblog STILL has NO STANDARDS (provide your own all-too-appropriate gag link).
I pledge to hold up my end of the conflagration more often in the coming months.
Turn up the heat for winter, as it were (SUBSTANTIVELY, of course).
Democracy is no easy form of government..For it requires that we take the chances of freedom; that the liberating play of reason be brought to bear of events filled with passion; that dissent be allowed to make its appeal for acceptance; that men chance error in their search for the truth. Robert Kennedy, 1966
I am not really all that
I am not really all that concerned about politicians posting here. I think it will continue to happen, and I think they are both treated with respect and also have their positions taken. (Mark Cohen gets criticized because, despite the good he does, he has the tinniest of tin ears.) Anyway, the target community is not politicians. So, when I think about the site growing, I am more concerned about diversifying and expanding our core.
yea
the explosion at YPP during the primary was never something dan or i particularly liked or wanted. and the addition of jennifer, mansei (ie women) as well as check-ins from groups like bread and roses--not to mention a few extra gays--represents the kind of growth i remember hoping for with dan a year or two ago.
we really did jump the shark though when dewitt was "banned." karma has been a bitch ever since.
Yay for Karen
For the record, I really like Karen Bojar's posts as well -- she's a lady too! (And super smart and kind, even if she hasn't written the secret plan for Nutter to save the city.)
--Tim
Aw
I will second this re: Karen, even though I am a little sensitive to getting validly typecast for my just showing up lately to say things are sweet or cute.
We need that too.
I am working to elect Larry Farnese to the General Assembly. Unless otherwise expressly stated, this and every comment or blog I post on YPP and any action I take hereon is solely attributable to me and not Farnese or Friends of Farnese
Re: diversifying YPP
Ray mentions above some ways that's been happening, but are you incubating any particular ideas about how further diversify/expand the core?
And I undestand that polticians aren't your "target community," but just gotta say that I think that having a place where pols can/do come to an online forum to engage with voters is huge (and I might add, can contibute to diversifying/expanding the core).
sure
Josh, no doubt. Your point is strong. However, YPP represents a very small group of citizens who at best represent a slightly larger, but still small segment of the city. Our strength to make change in even the best of circumstances as a blog is small, but even smaller unless we find a way to make progressive politics represent more people. That's all I am saying, and that's effort is what i have tried to make my biggest contribution to YPP.
I agree completely
and would really like to see the pool of contributors expanded. Does anyone remember the name of the woman who worked for Fattah, and who when I asked her online if she would make a post detailing what she saw as obstacles for diverisfying YPP, said she'd post about it after the election?
La-Toya
she did not work for the campaign. she was the chair of it. a volunteer role.
Scratches Head, Looks Down At Floor
As someone who's virtually disappeared since the elections, I'll simply offer that I went on vacation, came back, and started to do work, at work. I've kept tuning in, though, and I'm incredibly, incredibly excited for the discussions to come.
Electoral politics are all-consuming and addictive for me; I tend to need a few months of head-space after elections are over to give time and thought to other stuff. It's almost singularly unprecedented, though, to feel this good after an election - I'm hoping to continue learning from y'all as things begin to push forward in the next few months...
Hi Everyone-
I have continued to follow the YPP since the primary but like JKFriz, I also needed a few months of "head-space". The primary campaign was my first experience in politics and it was exhilirating, yet exhausting working on the campaign, maintaining my full time job, being a wife, mom, active church member, etc., etc. Since May I have been able to enjoy my new home and spend time with my husband and daughter without dragging them to campaign events. So I will definitely jump back in with comments eventually (including DE II's request), but I'm still decompressing. In the meantime, I continue to learn more about the process and will keep following YPP.
La-Toya