This Wednesday, November 28th at 11:00am in Room 400 of City Hall, a critical hearing on Darrell Clarke’s deeply flawed Inclusionary Housing bill will be held. The Philadelphia Campaign for Housing Justice urges all progressives and community activists to attend the hearing
To learn more about how Clarke’s bill differs from the bill drafted by the Philadelphia Campaign for Housing Justice (PCHJ), and why the PCHJ bill is superior to Clarke’s please visit our website:
http://www.philahousingjustice.org.
For a little broader view of the importance of Inclusionary Housing in the context of the growing problem of gentrification in Philadelphia, read on.
(Note: I am a member of the Philadelphia Campaign for Housing Justice and the webmaster of our site. However, what follows is my own view and is probably not shared by every member of the PCHJ. In addition, while both SEIU Local 32BJ and SEIU Local 1199p have played a role on the coalition, I am, again, speaking for myself not SEIU.)
Gentrification: Problems and Potential
The issue of gentrification has come up from time to time on this blog and is currently being discussed in another thread.
While pretty much all progressives worry about gentrification, I have long argued that the entry of middle and upper middle income people into working class and poor neighborhoods can actually be a good thing for everyone. (See Poverty is largely a communal not an individual problem and the greatest barriers to economic development and job creation in poor communities is not that the members of those communities are poorly educated and unskilled but that they are cut off from mainstream economic life and the opportunities that our economy once provided—and could still provide—to poorly educated and relatively unskilled people (like my great-grandparents and most of my grandparents.)
So the re-entry of black and white professionals and mangers into the city can help undo the great sin of the 1950s and 60s, that is, the creation of relatively isolated, overwhelmingly black neighborhoods that gradually lost their commercial life and their connections to the larger community.
Progressive Public Policy and Gentrification
But, to make that happen, we need progressive public policies that ensure that the reentry of the middle class into neighborhoods they fled years ago does not lead to the exit of working class and poor people from those same neighborhoods. We have to make sure that the people who lived through the bad times in Philadelphia neighborhoods are able to stick around for the good times.
With the right policies, we can use gentrification as a means of creating economically and racially integrated neighborhoods. With the wrong policies, we will compound the sins of the 50s and 60s. Poor and working class people will be pushed from the neighborhoods in which they have long lived.
Among those progressive policies we need are (1) caps on increases in property taxes; (2) investment in commercial corridors including streetscape improvements and support for neighborhood owned businesses; (3) more money for rehabilitating the homes of the poor and working class people; (4) the creation of sensible and heavily regulated financial instruments that enable poor and working class people to withdraw some of the rising value of their homes; and (5) the creation of low income housing in these neighborhoods.
Inclusionary Housing Policies
Inclusionary Housing policies are a great way—but not the only way—of improving housing in gentrifying neighborhoods. IH programs require developers to set aside a certain percentage of units in their developments, or in nearby developments, for affordable housing. Some IH programs also allow developers to put money into an affordable housing fund in-lieu of building new units.
In return for creating affordable housing, developers usually receive some incentive from the city such as a tax subsidy or zoning variance.
Under IH, if developers don’t build new market rate housing, they won’t build affordable housing. So IH works only if it is a win-win policy, one that serves both developers and those who need affordable housing. It provides incentives for building new market rate housing in n gentrifying neighborhoods while also insuring that affordable housing is built—or rehabilitated—as well.
The Problem iwth Clarke's Bill
The problem with Clarke’s bill is that it encourages developers to set aside housing that is affordable for families that earn 60 to 125% of Area Median income, that is, $43,000 to $90,000 for a family of four.
Our bill, on the other hand, aims to help families that earn less than 50% of Area Median Income, that is, $36,000 for a family of four and below.
Clarke’s bill, in other words doesn’t really help the people who most need it. In fact, because a substantial proportion of the housing built under Clarke’s bill will go to those who can afford gentrifying neighborhoods, his bill will encourage the evils of gentrification instead of constraining them. It will encourage the replacement of poor and working class people by middle class people.
There are other flaws in Clarke’s bill, which you can find described on the PCHJ website.
But the serious one, to my mind, is that it does not address the really critical issue before us—helping insure that the willingness of middle income people to reengage with urban life leads to a second wave of abuse of the working and poor people the middle class left behind thirty and forty years ago.
How to really help the middle class: fix our neighborhoods
A concern for the inequity of gentrification, I should add, is not just a matter of social justice. It is also something on which the future of our city hangs. For, if you think about it, Clarke’s bill doesn’t really help the middle class a useful way. After all, right now the middle class is not priced out of the Philadelphia housing market. There are row homes, twins, and single homes all through Philadelphia that remain affordable to those making between 60% and 125% of median income. Unlike cities like Boston and San Francisco, where the middle class is priced out of large swaths of the city, middle income people can easily find housing they can afford. The problem for our middle class is not that housing is too expensive but that neighborhoods in which that housing is found are declining. Too many middle class neighborhoods are starting to suffer from the crime, drug dealing that previously were found mainly in poorer neighborhoods. Commercial corridors all over the city are increasingly under stress.
Take, for example, neighborhood I know well in Northwest Philadelphia. Despite the prosperity and rising housing prices in Mt. Airy, our commercial corridor—which has improved a great deal in ten years—is still not what it should be. The Germantown section of Germantown Avenue is but a shadow of its former glory. Its stores are full but the quality of the merchandise available leaves many residents of Germantown cold—and shopping out of the city. And even in Chestnut Hill empty storefronts are more and more common. And Northwest Philadelphia is one area where population is growing and housing prices are going up. In other sections of the city, where housing prices are more static, residential and commercial decline is much more prevalent.
As neighborhoods decline, middle class people start to leave them. And others do not come to take their place. Many of those who leave go to the suburbs. And those who want to move back from the suburbs to the city find themselves looking at a relatively small number of neighborhoods in Center City, Chestnut Hill and Mt Airy and Overbrook and in the neighborhoods close to them that are gentrifying. Those are the neighborhoods where housing prices have really been booming in the last five years. And as prices rise, it becomes harder for middle income people to afford these neighborhoods.
We can, as Councilman Clarke wants, start giving subsidies to middle income people in these and surrounding neighborhoods. Or we can make a much wider range of neighborhoods attractive to the middle class by adopting the range of policies I described above—including Inclusionary Housing—and by improving the schools in these neighborhoods. In the long run, creating economically integrated neighborhoods will do more to keep middle class housing affordable in this city than directly subsidizing middle class housing. If IH is used, along with other policies to improve our neighborhoods we all win.










wages?
Marc, an interesting post. The one thing--an obsession of mine--missing from your analysis is wage loss. I know you know this, but tell me more about how inclusionary zoning helps raise median wages.
Beyond that, I understand the criticism of the Clarke bill. I have been hearing for months how bad it is. However, without the Clarke bill, where do families of four who earn $43 k go to buy homes?
I get that you think stabilizing lower income neighborhoods first, and targeting lower income homeowners eventually will create desirability for more middle income wage earners. But, in the short term, finding homes for families of who earn $43 k seems like a priority...and $43k for a family of four is a very small amount of money.
One last question: setting aside housing is one thing, but how do $36 k and below families pay for the housing? Is there a mortgage assistance program?
Re wages: one thing that its
Re wages: one thing that its important to understand about where Philadlephia in particular stand in terms of declining jobs is the pathetic state of our educational system. Inclusive growth begets a more varied tax base and a more varied base of um angry "concerned parents" which improves our ability to pay for a competitive public schools system. Too be frank one big part of declining availability of non-college jobs in Philly according to many employers is the lack of an educated workforce, the other being the daunting bureaucracy and corruption both percieved and real in terms of "getting things done".
None of this exists in a vaccum and housing, education and jobs are innevitably inter related.
I was most interested in #4 financial instruments to make the unrealized wealth of homeowners in gentrifying neighborhoods work to their benefit. This seems like an angle with enormous potential but I'm not sure how it would work.
i agree sean
and i have written about that stuff ad nauseum, especially in some BPT threads but also .
but i am asking for a more specific answer: how does an inclusionary zoning bill improve median wages? This is not a trick question: i imagine the answer is through an increased number of neighborhood-based construction jobs and through the commercial development Marc mentions. I just wonder if there are any numbers.
Well its not enough but full
Well its not enough but full density mixed income neighborhoods as opposed to half-empty poverty stricken ones support more mom and pops businesses on their commercial corridors as Marc mentions and that does bring additional jobs opportunities. I am sure Lou will mention unionized contruction jobs with any new large scale development. Rehab programs often have been bridges for folks traditionally cut out of mainstream construction work to get first jobs in the field.
What is a reasonable rent?
If you earn $43,000 a year, then paying twenty percent of your income for housing--which I believe is fairly common--would give you $716 for monthly rent. There are 3 bedroom apartments and small row houses available in Philadelphia for that money.
And you should be able to afford a house that costs $107,000. Houses can be had for that amount in Philadelphia.
Of course a $700 a month rent won't get you a house in a great neighborhood. And that is precisely my point. If we improve neighborhoods living standards go up even if the price of housing is not subsidized.
Obviously I think raising wages of working people is important. No one who didn't believe that would go to meetings, rallies, and lobbying trips week after week for a year and a half to fight to raise the minimum wage. Or would work for SEIU.
But one's standard of living depends upon much more than one's wage. Imagine a world with great, reasonably priced public transit, good public schools, good parks and recreation facilities, museums that are open once a week for free, good libraries, and publicly provided health care. Wages matter much less in such a world than in the world we live in today.
A lot of what we buy with high wages is living in a good neighborhood, which means a neighborhood with good public amenities, especially schools. Of, we use wages to make up for the lack of such amenities by purchsing private education, cars, etc.
So while the fight for social justice is partly about raising wages it is also about creating communiities in which one can live a decent life without making a very high income. That is the best way to subsidize, among other things, writers, artists and political organizers.
That being said, IH would indirectly contribute to raising wages by, as you note, providing construction jobs and by encouraging community revitalization and the commercial development it brings in its wake. I can't give you any numbers, howeer. And that is not the sole reason to support IH.
like i said not a trick question...
listen marc, I agree with you. I do however think that the conditions that created so many problems in our neighborhoods had more to do with wage loss than a huge increase in housing cost. so, this is a great idea and something that needs to be done, but i was just wondering what impact inclusionary zoning itself has on median wage growth.
as for your other argument, you lost me. where can you get a house for $100 k or a 3 bedroom apartment for $716 in this city? i don't really understand your logic. Clarke's current bill would allow families of four who live off of $43 k to get an apartment or house in a nice area. I could see how the higher income groups he is including could be too high. but what is the logic of cutting out the people who earn $43 k?
again, not a trick question: you are representing a coalition right? who are the members? and what process did you come up with to get to a 50% area median income cut off? that's what i want to know.
Marc can speak more about
Marc can speak more about the specific make-up and decision-making in the coalition.
I think: a good inclusionary zoning/housing bill is a great, important thing. It can only do so much though, and is not a cure-all for either wage or housing availability.
That said, I think a significant thing you get from a good IH bill is a control on the price inflation that can accompany gentrification and real estate speculation in currently-affordable areas. My understanding is that the Coalition bill specifies that rental properties developed under the bill will be guaranteed as permanently affordable. I can speak in more detail about why permanent affordability is pretty crucial, if people have questions.
My understanding is also that affordability for the lower end of the income spectrum was a non-negotiable priority for those who developed the alternative bill. Though housing prices in the city of Philadelphia aren't ridiculous, from my amateur arm-chair perspective, my understanding is that we have masses of people on the PHA waiting list, and a large number of others paying too high a percentage of income for housing. It also seems like a big issue for our city is funding repairs and renovations to affordable but not really habitable units. I think the alternative bill has attempted to specifically target money to basic systems repair (grants are currently available for this purpose, but cannot reach all who need them).
I can write more this evening.
That was our reasoning
At the least the first part of it. It is not that things are great for people making $43,000. It is that things are so much worse for people making less than $36,000 and especially for the disabled. A study done for the affordable housing coalition suggested that we need 60,000 units of truly affordable housing, that housing for those at the bottom 15 or 20% of the income scale. At the rate we produce affordable housing in this city, we will solve the problem in about 75 years.
The second reason we want IH targeted to low income folks is that these are the first people who are displaced by gentrification.
I'm not a realtor and I am permanently fixed in my home. But I have friends who are renting a very nice 3 bedroom row house in South Philly for a little over $700 a month and other friends who have a decent apartment in West Phillly for that amount.
I have not looked closely at the real estate market in two years or so. But last time I did, you could buy a decent row house in East Germantown or South Philly below Taske for around $100,000. Have things changed so much in the last two years?
median rent
I got this from the coalition itself:
I definitely think
I definitely think that the main realizable priorities for a bill like this need to be affordable rental housing and systems repair.
New construction of houses to purchase will not be permanently affordable, since limited-equity models are controversial and haven't been on the table, to my knowledge. And there is definitely a risk to the existing stock of affordable rental housing, as money flows back into the city and people buy up formerly affordable rentals for single-family owner-occupied housing.
We do have a stock of homes that are still relatively affordable for purchase, though low-income owners may need repair assistance and other forms of help.
However, the information from the coalition says "Roughly 70% of renters in Philadelphia cannot afford the fair market rent on a 2 bedroom apartment ($923)." I am not on top of rental prices, but I know the house I bought this summer right below Tasker was a bit over $200,000, and had gone on the market close to $240,000. Prices this summer where, to my eye, massively inflated. Also, the vast majority appeared to be sold by speculators, though I don't know what proportion might have formerly been rentals.
Jinx to Ray.
Jinx to Ray.
Also
this is not necessarily a propos of the bill, but responds to Ray's original comment:
It is a weird conundrum, since on one hand, promoting homeownership has the potential to help leverage poorer people from poverty. But since wages are stagnant (see Dan's posts about this in the post on Ramsey and the DC murder rate), it is a problem when the rise in houses prices far outpaces them.
That's why I think the focus needs to be on rental housing, since for the foreseeable future, the proportion of people making at or close to poverty-level-wages is going to persist, and those people desperately need housing that is affordable at those low wage levels if they are not going to end up in the shelter system or streets. PHA certainly can't absorb them.
We really, really need to get wages up, though.
No question, prices are up
I've been looking at the MLS for two neighborhoods I know a bit, East Mt. Airy and South Philly between 6th and 11th and Ritner and Oregon. The houses that were 100,000 or so a few years ago are being listed for 140-150,000. These are small houses between 900 and 1100 sq ft with 2 nice size or 3 smaller bedrooms. My guess is that they sell for a little less than they list so that you can probably afford them comfortably with an income of 555-60k if you had a little bit for a downpayment. Of course, lots of people starting out stretch to buy there first house and buy one that is more fare more than 2.5x their income. (I certainly did even though I was living in wonderfully cheap Hillsborough, NC)
I'm would be surprised if you couldn't find subtantially cheaper houses in less desirable neighborhoods. The two I looked at are, I'd say, middling. The parts of East Mt. Airy I was looking had charming streets and were nearby to parks and Germantown Avenue but had higher crime rates than most of us would like to see. The parts of South Philly I was looking at probalby have even higher crime rates and are less charming but they are a short walk and a subway ride to Center City and have a lot of good, cheap, restaurants and bars very close.
So I think I'll stand by my general claim that people in the middle can find affordable housing. It is housing that is in the greatest shape but it is solidy and in neighborhoods with one or another kind of urban amenity. And as you move below the median affordable homes are available but they are in neighborhoods that become increasingly problematic.
The really serious problems are, I think, not in the middle where Philadlephia is doing well compared to other cities but for those who are at 50% of median income and and below.
The serious vs. the "really serious"
Well, Marc, the contortions here are a little problematic. Houses are affordable for the lower-middle class in Philadelphia, *if* the crime rate would would go down, *if* the school systems were better, *if* they were in slightly better shape, and *if* they stretch to buy their first house...
The trouble is that most of the items on that list are dealbreakers for the average middle-class family, even one at the teacher-and-civil-servant end of the income spectrum. There was a time, and as you mention, it wasn't very long ago, when houses for this group were available without those kind of caveats. I have friends who live in the parts of South Philly that you describe, but they're young art-school graduates who work as movers and in retail, they have apartments, not houses, and the bars and cheap restaurants are a good draw. But the thirty-year-old couple with a four- and a two-year old just don't feel the same way.
There is an honest-to-goodness problem with affordable housing in the city in safe neighborhoods for people making below $40K, and there is a genuine problem with affordable workforce housing in good neighborhoods for families who make $40-75K. And that's a problem with Clarke's bill. (There is a problem with affordable housing in good neighborhoods for both groups in the entire mid-Atlantic, but let's not get ahead of ourselves.) We need a solution to both problems -- and inclusionary housing + inclusionary zoning can be a powerful first step for both. This isn't a game of cards -- one need doesn't trump another.
--Tim (aka Short Schrift)
homeownership vs rental
i totally agree Tim.
Which brings me to another simple question: does the coalition IH bill have rental unit vs. home ownership goals?
Goals are probably not definitive
Ray:
I cannot say for sure if there are goals although I'd be surprised if there were.
Nobody knows how many developments of rental units will be built in the city in coming years but at least the legislation provides for a way to ensure affordable rental units are built along the way. The same logic is true for the affordable housing provisions.
My gut feeling is that the net result of the legislation would be in the range of hundred or two hundred additional affordable units a year (assuming a total of about a thousand new units of housing or so are built in the city each year). Center City had approximately 10,000 new units built over the past decade. I also just learned that development projects are increasing growing larger (200-300 units versus 50-100) because land is more expensive and investors need to create more units to make it worth their while. Certainly, this implies there would be more affordable units created as well.
The long term impact of the legislation, however, is substantial. If for instance, the PennPraxis plans for the water front comes true over the next 40 years, and a place the size of Center City is built, it could mean thousand units of additional affordable housing would be created. This is not to mention what occurs throughout the rest of the city. Sure, it may not be "enough" but it's a good start and there is no excuse for designing less than optimal legislation.
--Mike
Weeds in the Sidewalk
rental units?
Mike, so you see the main product of IH as more rental units?
Sorry for the fuzziness but
Sorry for the fuzziness but I wasn't making much of a distinction between rental and housing. The legislation creates incentives for more of both, and has specific clauses pertaining to each, but I suspect that since more units of affordable housing are built than rental developments units that the end result is more affordable housing unit rather than more affordable rental units. Nonetheless, I'll take whatever of both come.
My general sense is that of 1,000 units of housing built each year in Philly is that there is a breakdown of probably 80-20 or so between single family housing and apartment buildings with rentals. This is just a guess. I'm sure I could pin it down but don't have time for the research.
--Mike
Weeds in the Sidewalk
never mind
Mike answered
what are FHA income guidelines?
so back to the 50 vs. 60% of median income question. how would the FHA distinguish those two income groups? would both be eligible for a mortgage?
if the goal of the IH bill is more geared toward home ownership for people at 50% or lower median area income, is there a plan to hook them up with FHA and other mortgage assistance programs?
I am really glad to discuss this and think discussion is
important.
But I can't really fully respond right now, cause of time, and I also think that it is unfortunately unproductive to talk on this specific topic not having the two bills in front of us. I just don't know the targets or their distribution, and I can speculate, but it is just speculation.
I should have also said that part of that speculation or intuition is that the distribution will greatly depend on the service providers who apply for the money, since my guess is that not a ton of on-site development is going to happen and there will be more in-lieu contributions. Then, it is dependent on the affordable housing developers to create development plans and apply for funds.
I'd defer to Mike about the figures for how much of each tend to happen. As I've said in other conversations about this, I do not think that affordable housing for purchase is particularly useful, because of issues with throwing very low-income people into homeownership, and mostly because these houses will appreciate over time and no longer be affordable.
What we really need is guaranteed permanently affordable rentals, to offset the rentals that get bought and converted to single family houses for higher-income people as neighborhoods 'improve'. And to address the fact that increases in rental prices have outpaced wage increases, unfortunately.
What may be a good approach,
What may be a good approach, at least in principle is
1) guaranteed permanently affordable rentals at the 55% and under AMI, which could potentially help not only working-poor and blue-collar families, but also single people who don't make very much money;
2) affordable housing for purchase at, say the $40-75K range, a group that has more wage, career and credit stability, and who in many cases prefer to purchase than to rent, but still have difficulty finding homes for purchase because of the real estate boom.
Ideally, you want both of these groups to share a neighborhood with people making $75K and above who are paying (and in most cases can still afford) market rate purchases.
--Tim (aka Short Schrift)
yes
in answer to marc's question, "what do i want," i think tim's reply is it.
marc, i know you are representing a coalition, but your argument has so far been a bit too narrow for what my armchair perception of the problem is.
so what i want is either data that shows how wrong i am--that "middle" income wage earners (families of four living off of $43k) are buying houses in neighborhoods they don't want to live in but are affordable (which defies the whole location! location! location pathos) or that, as Tim suggests, a more wholistic solution is in order.
the red herring in this conversation, at least for me, has been home ownership vs. renting. i think for very low wage earners, as Jennifer has said, affordable renting is most important.
leaving this bill to the side, i wonder what the best strategy for creating the best, and the most affordable rental units, as quickly as possible, is. I am not sure the market can ever move fast enough which does not mean that this bill is anything but a great and needed step in the right direction.
Blast to the Past
If you break down my reply into a real-world neighborhood, what you see is something like this:
Studio, 1 and 2 bedroom rentals between 500 and 900$/month;
2-3 bedroom houses/condos between $150-250K;
Market rate condos and larger houses between $200-400K and up.
It's astonishing how much this looks like University City, Fairmount, and the Graduate Hospital when I moved here in 2002.
--Tim (aka Short Schrift)
good point
and at least for grays' ferry/south street (grad hospital area..come on..) and west philly...they were neighborhoods that were traditionally (well in the last 30 years at least) racially and class-wise diverse, but the diversity was uneven in terms of homeowners/renters.
so most homeowners have hung on through the gentrification as opposed to renters.
which i guess this could be backed up with data--but jennifer is def. right that provding more affordable rental units is key.
jennifer, others--what about rent control? how does that work? i realize this way off topic...but just curious...
Some form of rent control would be great
It really solves a lot of the problems--we are protected from runaway housing cost increases without the government having to build or fund building.
I don't know a ton about any history of attempts here, except that we apparently did have some rent control of some form at some point in the 1950s (I was reading some old housing cases).
But generally, it is politically near impossible at this point in time to get decent rent control or stabilization measures passed. Even areas with strong ones are seeing them radically curtailed or repealed as owners try to get out from under the restrictions.
It's Anderson Village now
Grays' Ferry south of Washington was and is in a very different state then the area marketed then (and until recently) as Graduate Hospital (although I remember everyone referring to it as "south of South" when I was moving in, as in "don't live south of South"). You really can still find a house for $100K at, say, Grays' Ferry and Newkirk.
Gentrification always has a much more immediate impact on renters than homeowners, which is why I sometimes find the rhetoric (which tends to tilt towards existing homeowners) a little bit odd.
--Tim (aka Short Schrift)
Just for the record
your analysis is great Tim, in general, but those hypothetical rental prices are too high, and would take too big a chunk out of the incomes of the people we are aiming at.
I will try to transfer some of the discussion from email about the mechanics and limitations of municipal-level intervention into the housing market to ensure affordability, when I have the chance.
But Ray's questions to Marc I think might be productively reframed:
Talking about the housing-for-purchase end (since there is an agreed-upon need for permanently affordable rentals), there is clearly need in the middle AND at the low end for decent, non-rundown houses in relatively decent neighborhoods (the deemphasis of need in the middle is at least partially strategic as the Coalition has tried to communicate the difference between its bill and Clarke's.
The question is just who gets most of the help? Since development is expensive, the guidelines matter: housing won't be affordable for the low end unless you dedicate funds to that. So, do you take the moral stance that the poorest people have the least options and are least served by the status quo, and we need to focus on them. I do not think that is a bad starting point.
Ray's question, though, emerges when you think about political viability. If it is not possible to pass a bill that aims at the poorest and cuts off before the middle, how far are you willing to readjust?
I think this is a strategic calculation, and should hopefully be able to happen in the spring, when the Coalition, the new people on Council, and the old councilpeople who have been supportive of some form of this legislation can all have a series of discussions to refine the bill.
addendum
You then go on to say this starting point may need to be revisited if political reality gets in the way. I want to clarify that i am not as interested in the political reality as in creating a populist perspective reflective of how class boundaries work in real life.
People who earn $43,000 a year to support a family of four don't see themselves as all that well off. That's all. I agree that you should take the moral highground as your starting point, but I guess I am just asking to include more people in that high ground.
Going back to Marc's original point, his concern that Clarke's bill is too permissive, that seems right to me. But the coalition bill seems too restrictive.
And again, the question of focus on either bill re: rentals vs. homes to buy is a big one.
That's fine, rhetorically
And the rhetoric is not unimportant, as you suggest.
But I do think that the lowest end has been demonstrably not served by the existing market, and do have measurably less choices. So I do not think it is a distortion to say, now we need to prioritize these people. Any bill is already trying to do more than it can (look at the intended uses of any money that comes in under the bill). The resources really are limited.
I mean, looking at the size of the PHA waiting list alone, and the number of YEARS people sit on it: we do not have very high guidelines for accessing public housing. If people are eligible for it, but cannot access it, they clearly do not have viable alternative options, and need aid.
Also
As a given, I am sympathetic to your concerns for the middle.
The opposition to the Clarke bill as written, is that it would dedicate half of the money that comes in to the high end of its already higher spectrum. So half the people aided, at least, are not the people you have been talking about.
That's just a clarification. I do think, as I said, that redefining affordability to cover people who are clearly struggling to find decent housing but are not at poverty level makes sense in the context of an ongoing process of refining the bill that we ultimately hopefully adopt.
ok so back to strategy
you are right. and this goes back to Tim's point that some people need help (higher, lower wage earners, like 60% of median income) and some people REALLY need help (like people below 50% area median income).
Strategically, from a populist, progressive movement building perspective, you don't want to pit those two groups against each other.
Think about how effective the Regan "welfare queen" was in motivating working-class voters to support all kinds of terrible tax cuts and how successful that same kind of class/race warfare stuff has been the undercurrent in debates about gutting affirmative action, or even more recently, how that same kind of logic was used to justify No Child Left Behind.
Maybe you have more insight into these political dynamics
I am not sure how that appearance of conflict would emerge: the 'other side' seems to me to be developers.
Right now, no one gets this money or houses built with it. If there was a bill, developers would be out some money, and some people would get houses who wouldn't otherwise. I don't see it is as a direct conflict, unless, a la manipulated welfare-reform rhetoric, developers somehow mounted a PR attempt to cast it that way.
the other side
well first of all, i am describing the building of a populist, cross-class movement over time that truly reforms this city by electing council devoted to fixing inequities and serving people.
i am concerned about a bill that excludes people, like families of four who earn $43 k who need help. This will result in pitting logical allies against one another at a personal/rhetorical level.
In practical terms, the Nutter base and the base of Council members contains a lot of people who earn 60-75% of area median income and they might get pretty pissed if their elected reps pass a bill that does not serve them--when they have so much need.
Continuum (i.e. Inclusive) Neighborhoods
I think also, in building a neighborhood, it's good to have people on a continuum of incomes (and ages, races, educational levels, etc.) rather than leaving a whole in the middle. If you look at gentrification, the biggest problems are when these differences, in incomes, especially, is stark.
Luckily, Philadelphia figured out how to make this kind of neighborhood work more than a century ago. It's a neighborhood grid with retail corridors and apartment buildings in four-to-five stories, with adjoining three- and two-story row houses with corner retail alternating on each street.
This is one of the things I find particularly exciting about the PennPraxis plan for the waterfront.
--Tim (aka Short Schrift)
Yes, I totally agree that an
Yes, I totally agree that an ideal result of a bill like this would be to really incentivize inclusion of affordable units on-site or close to the luxury or market rate developments. This is something that can also be leveraged in the zoning context, when a variance is needed to build (in a different world, with a different zoning board, but it happens elsewhere).
A really memorable moment to me was reading that W.E.B. DuBois survey of race in Philadelphia, and seeing how intensely integrated some sections of the city were. This was a product of domestic servants living alongside those they worked for, so it is not a model or anything, but it was fascinating to see how grand and modest houses were interwoven along main streets and alleys downtown.
Or look at Grays Ferry
the south of Washington, west of 25th part.
I don't believe for a minute that "it has nothing to do with color," but there is no reason to add fuel to the fire.
--Tim (aka Short Schrift)
A subtext
There's a good Iquirer series on that development, which was part of the HOPE VI-funded destruction of dangerous/outmoded high-rise developments and their rebuilding as lower-density mixed-income projects.
The subtext that is relevant here is that there was a net loss of public housing units as part of that process, because of the lower density and that some units were set aside at HIGHER income levels (this is recent federal policy, to encourage the mixing of incomes and the lessening of the segregation of those in public housing).
Anyway, that net loss of public housing units is part of the problem that afflicts the poorest people in this city in trying to find housing.
I have met . . .
Bobby Gormley on a number of occassions, and if any of us had someone like him living and caring about our communities like he does about Grays Ferry, we'd all be very lucky.
I'm working on responding to the points made above, but the comments are so scattered, it is hard to organize myself. Right now, I think I'm aligning myself with Ray.
I am working to elect Larry Farnese to the General Assembly. Unless otherwise expressly stated, this and every comment or blog I post on YPP and any action I take hereon is solely attributable to me and not Farnese or Friends of Farnese
Re: addendum
Ray, given that you say this:
I'm a bit confused about your perspective (maybe I need to re-read the thread more closely?)
Do you really think that focusing on a wider cross-section of income levels, as opposed to focusing more narrowly on the poorest individuals, is the best way to erase class boundaries?
I'm not sure where this conversation crosses from the practical to the abstract - but my feeling is that increasing the economic vitality of our poorest neighborhoods is the most practical way to build bridges across class boundaries. I think that is true both in the sense of political realities and with respect to creating a populist agenda. You, apparently feel differently. Is that only because you tie that into the issue of how to support higher wages?
Sorry if I've missed some of the conceptual elements of what you've been saying.
addendum to re: addendum
The reason why I think that focusing more narrowly on the poorest sector is the best way to create a populist agenda is that there are a whole hell of a lot of poor folks in this City who are not politically active because they see no likely gain from being so. To the degree that the middle/upper middle class "progressive" community can form links to disaffected poor folks, real gains can be delivered - and delivering those gains can create the links needed to create a larger populist movement.
um, who are you talking to?
of course I agree Josh. But the traditional focus of the left's upper white middle class has been on the very poorest...and not the people a little higher up--in this case "a little higher up" is a family of four (imagine that: we're talking either a single mom and three kids which means tons of daycare costs and clothes and food or two low-wage earners and two kids) that earns less than $43 k a year.
The right-wing has been very successful (this is the whole premise of What's the Matter with Kansas for instance) at exploiting the low-income working class that lefties sometimes leave behind.
So, your point is
more a disagreement about how to define who is poor and who isn't?
I agree with Jennifer's last post. I don't get where you see some schism developing out of the kind of focus that Marc is describing - a focus on re-vitalizing those neighborhoods that are the most blighted as a higher order of priority.
income levels
i feel like you are over complicating it. the schism is simple. if i and my partner, combined earn $43 k and have 2 kids, this bill will not help us.
that is the schism--it is in defining income levels.
The coalition thought Clarke defined income levels too high. So they defined them too lower. I am repeating myself from earlier: it seems to me that unless the coalition only wants to focus on creating rental units, their levels are too low and Clarke's too high.
This debate--about income levels--is what probably matters most to other Council members.
I lied
One more comment. That's not how I read What's the Matter with Kansas. For me, the message is that Republicans were able to capitalize on the lack of return for working poor by Democrats. My "take-away" from that is that the focus of Dems should be, very specifically, on delivering returns to the working poor. I know that I'm extrapolating too much here, but my overall sense is that you're emphasing an approach that is more akin to the Democratic Party policy of trying to capture more middle-class votes rather than an agenda that focuses on capturing the vast number of votes from folks who never go to the polls because the see no reason to.
Please don't think that I'm trying to marginalize what you're saying - it's more just thinking through typing.
the working class
how do you define the working class Josh?
In my mind, 4 people living on $43 k is pretty working class. $43 k is about $2200 a month clear.
Let's say that is two partners and 2 kids. Let's say they squeeze into a median rent apartment at 912 a month. They easily spend $800 a month on food plus $200 in utilities. Another $300 or so goes to a car or maybe they all use tokens and get hacks when they go to the supermarket. Am I up to a total of $2200 yet?
What about health care? What about pension? What about clothes? Any kind of luxury?
That is not working class to you?
I lied again
Ray, I get what you're saying here. Really. Just questioning the larger implications - particularly with respect to greating a larger populist movement here in Philly.
I guess what I'm getting at is whether, if the goal is to build alliances, and if a choice must be made, my sense is that building ways to revitalize imporverished neighborhoods is more efficacious than finding ways to enable other folks, with at least a bit more money, to move in.
But I get what you're saying. Really.
added: and I know that there is very much a false dichotomy embedded in opposing those two alternaitves.
i don't think you do
Maybe someone needs to haul out census data, but where do you think $43 k wage earners live? I bet you a million dollars that at least half, if not a lot more of them live on the same block, as $36 k wage earners, who ARE included in the Coalition bill.
I do get that, Ray
I do get that, Ray
then what relavance does this statement have?
i think you should re-read
for me, this conversation has been about the decision to focus construction of affordble housing units for sale on families at 50% of area median wage income and below.
i have been asking why 60% was not included as well, and my sense is that even families at 75% should be included too for home ownership purposes.
for rental unites, the more i read, especially from jennifer,i think that makes sense.
So, Ray, you are saying
That with respect to home ownership the focus should be wider, but with respect to the ability to afford rents, the focus should be narrower?
i don't know
i think that is what i am saying, but policy wide, i am out of my depth. i am not sure if rents should be narrower or if they are fine where they are.
the subtext to this whole conversation that is kind of funny is that market-driven affordable housing set-aside is not exactly the fastest or most efficient way to deal with an affordable housing crisis.
it's important: real units will be created and it's a huge symbol (something dan already said), but it is just a piece.
Ok, at this point my head's spining
You guys keep talking amongst yourselves and I'll try to find the time to read the thread more carefully.
I am sorry for beating this into the ground
but since it is public and people are learning by reading this stuff...
Your 'why not 60% instead of cutting off at 50% of AMI' is a fair question, and should be brought up in talking about an ideal bill, but it does not lead to support for the Clarke bill over the Coalition one. That's because the Clarke bill is not the same thing as the other bill with the additional inclusion of people at 60% AMI (that is, with family incomes in the lower $40k per year).
Instead, under the Clarke bill:
I guess for money in the fund, it would be distributed according to the priorities of OHCD, who currently control the fund, but the bill does target "families earning 60 – 125% of Area Median Income (AMI)" ($43,000 - $90,000 for a family of four).
Anyway, the point of that is that the distribution of resources under this bill does not match what you have been describing as desirable, so with your concerns it likewise makes sense to revisit the Clarke bill, as it does to revisit the other one.
I do not support the Clarke bill
did i not make that clear?
you are totally right. i know i do not support the Clarke bill and I am pretty sure I never said I did. Marc's original, broad analysis--that Clarke's bill could worsen gentrification, seemed right on.
My only contention has been about income levels at the low end and my guess is, that if home ownership is the goal, including 60 and maybe even 75% of area median income would make more sense.
Maybe I was just confused
Maybe I was just confused because the important political context of Marc's post was action against the Clarke bill at a Council meeting today.
So I was concerned that your comments implied that support should be thrown to the Clarke bill as either desirable or viable.
Anyway, not to target you or your comments, but these things are good to clarify as we seek support from readers of this site for whatever version of the bill we ultimately try to get passed.
Just what you wanted: More Housing Statistics
I didn’t see the statistic on the PCHJ website, which I created. Is that where you found it?
I’ve seen it elsewhere, however.
Housing affordability statistics get complicated very quickly. I just spent about 15 minutes brushing up.
The generally accepted measure of affordability index is that housing is affordable when families pay no more than 30% of their income on housing costs. According to a 2006 study by the National Low Income Housing Coalition which is available at the available at the housing alliance of Pennsylvanian website http://www.housingalliancepa.org/library/view.php?resource_id=73, the fair market rent for a two bedroom apartment is $923. At 50% of area median income, a family can afford a rent of $901. So need, not 70% of AMI but about 53% of AMI to afford a two-bedroom apartment. This is about where the PCHJ bill sets the upper target for Inclusionary Housing.
The difference in the statistics may be that the income of renters tends to be less than that of homeowners. I can’t find precise statistics on the difference however.
So perhaps renters up to 60% of AMI cannot afford housing by the usual standard. There are other reasons for not setting the target higher which I’ve mentioned before but want to elaborate on here.
One is that while we can turn housing affordability into a dichotomous (yes / no) variable, we all know that it is not really dichotomous. Thirty percent is the cut off for the dichotomous version. But paying 25% of your income on housing does not make you filthy rich and paying 35% does not make you desperately poor. But you are definitely in worse shape if you have to pay 35% than 30% and 40% than 35% and 50% than 40%. Families with an income of 30% of AMI can only afford to pay $541 per month at the 30% cut-off level. So they may well be paying 50% of the income on housing for two-bedroom apartments.
As I’ve pointed out, given limited resources it makes more sense to help those in the worst circumstances first.
Second, you have to take all these numbers with a grain of salt. In some ways, they tend to overstate the problem at middle incomes and understate them at lower incomes. After all, to say the FMR for a two bedroom apartment is $923 does not mean that you can’t get a two-bedroom apartment for less. You certainly can. After all, Philly is not one uniform housing market and the first three rules of housing prices—location, location, and location—apply. I just quickly looked on a couple of website and found two-bedroom apartments for much less—and for much more. You get cheaper apartments, however, in less desirable locations like North Philly and West Philly. If you want to pay a lot more for a two-bedroom apartment, you go to Center City or Alden Park in Mt. Airy.
And that brings me back to the point I’ve been making, the real problem with housing for the people in the middle is not that they can’t afford it but that the neighborhoods are full of quality of life problems and crime. Fix those problems, in ways I’ve described elsewhere, and the quality of life goes up dramatically.
At lower ends of the income scale, housing gets relatively more expensive and neighborhood quality drops a lot. Clearly people at 20% of AMI are hurting much more than people at 50%, which again is not to say that things are peachy at 50%. They aren’t but mostly because of crime and neighborhood decay.
The statistic was from
The statistic was from PCHJ's fact sheet for testifying at the hearing tomorrow.
Everyone's comments on here are great, and I am glad people are thinking through these issues.
We do deserve, as a city, the chance for a process where we can craft and pass the best bill. Anyone who can should certainly try to make it to City Hall tomorrow, or write or call your councilperson.
And, assuming that Clarke's bill does not pass tomorrow and we are working on passing the bill in the new year, all who are concerned with these issues should certainly encourage Michael Nutter to follow his stated goal of harnessing development to really benefit the city, and to support a good inclusionary zoning/housing bill.
A brief jot
Inclusionary housing alone may have a neglible impact on wage growth, but it does make those wages worth more, dollar-for-dollar.
First, housing that's closer to employment opportunities reduces or eliminates some costs, especially transit.
Second, it's well-documented that people in poorer neighborhoods pay more for the same goods and services than people in or near wealthier neighborhoods, because they have less choice and fewer institutions that can leverage economies of scale. In effect, people in poorer neighborhoods, regardless of their income, earn their wages in inflated dollars.
Inclusionary housing gives you more labor choices (which potentially increases your wages) and makes those wages more significant by reducing the devaluation of those wages.
--Tim (aka Short Schrift)
Thanks Tim
for pointing another way in which poverty is a communal not an individual problem that I should have mentioned above. Fixing neighborhoods will bring down the cost of food and other goods.
Thanks Tim for actually answering my question
It's funny. This is a site generally of allies, but ask a real question about something and you get either attacked or inundated with rhetoric.
Thanks Tim fo actually addressing my question re: wages. As I was thinking about this bill, because wages matter so much to me, I was trying to think of ways this would boost wages. Like a lot of other readers here, I share stuff I learn and like to have my own arsenal of facts and reasons to support something.
So, thanks.
At the end of the day Marc, you still have not addressed my main question. Y
ou keep referring to the real estate market of the city as a whole as if renters and home buyers considered every neighborhood and made choices based only on price.
Families of four who together live off of $43,000 are having a very hard time finding a three bedroom apartment for $713 which is what you originally said was easy to find. I paid $700 for a 3 bedroom apt in Pittsburgh in a mixed income neighborhood in 1998. I have been renting in Philadelphia since 2001 and I know lots of people who rent all over the city. $700 for a 3 bedroom is a dream, even south of Tasker and in East Germantown. Maybe such a place exists, but probably off-market (like friend to friend) or it is in really bad shape.
Ask other renters on this site, but $900 sounds about right to me as the median price of a 2 bedroom Philadelphia apartment.
My unanswered question for you: who makes up the coalition and why did they choose, for their bill, to end income eligibility at 50 vs. 60% or even 75% of area median income?
Especially if the bill stresses home ownership, as opposed to rental units, it is hard for me to understand the logic.
You have made some anecdotal claims about difference in income quintiles (like $36 k vs. 43 k earners) but I wonder if you can discuss some data that backs that up?
I'm not sure what you are looking for, Ray
The data I posted above about housing affordability confirms what you report anecdotally, that 900 is the fair market rent for a 2 bedroom apartment. And it is affordable at 52-53% of AMI, which is the top end of our target.
So my response to you was
1. The need is much greater lower down the scale than at 50 or 60% of AMI.
2. The greater problem for people at 50 or 60% of AMI is quality of neighborhood not cost of housing. IH can help resolve that problem indirectly by contributing to an improvement in neighborhoods. But if we subsidize people at higher incomes and they all try to live in a small number of good neighborhoods, then we will drive up the price of housing in those neighborhoods and the cost of making affordable housing in those neighborhoods will go up.
This is complicated stuff and the answers and numbers are not always clear. But I'm trying to answer your questions and I'm not sure what else you are looking for in reply.
As I noted above, I was wrongabout the price of a three bedroom apartment. I know someone who rents a three bedroom house in a decent neighborhood for about 725 but that must be a special case.
Getting back to the original post--delay the vote, please
We know Bill Green, IV, who is one of the newly elected Council-At-Large members has expressed an intention to introduce and inclusionary housing bill in the near future. He even proposed some potential improvements to the Affordable Housing Coalition's proposal. Given that new Council Representatives clearly intends to address the issue and that Michael Nutter has expressed support for inclusionary housing legislation, it would be wise if the current Council could delay the vote until January.
If perchance Clarke's version passes, I think it'll only be one more example of "just doing things wrong," when clearly better options are on the table.
--Mike
Weeds in the Sidewalk
Delay the vote, seconded
Good discussion. But yeah, as Mike says, lets get the thing delayed.
Delaying the vote . . .
Will kill the bill. And, if that is what you want, great. But, the legislation will not pick up where it left of when the new folks come in. A whole new bill will have to be introduced.
I am working to elect Larry Farnese to the General Assembly. Unless otherwise expressly stated, this and every comment or blog I post on YPP and any action I take hereon is solely attributable to me and not Farnese or Friends of Farnese
Gaetano, that is the idea
The goal (of the coalition) is to have Clarke's bill voted down, so a different bill or a modified version can be introduced in the spring.
If Clarke's bill is adopted tomorrow as written, the interests of the constituencies of the groups that make up the Coalition for Housing Justice will not be reflected.
OK. Like I said, if that is
OK. Like I said, if that is within your goals, then delay kills the bill. Then, you have to have another CP introduce one you like.
That is all.
I'd think, for your purposes, having the session expire is best versus a loss on votes.
I am working to elect Larry Farnese to the General Assembly. Unless otherwise expressly stated, this and every comment or blog I post on YPP and any action I take hereon is solely attributable to me and not Farnese or Friends of Farnese
Great thread: Not bad for a bunch of "cards."
Very informative. Interesting discussion.
I am putting this down here
Cause those comment threads are getting a little too narrow.
I disagree with Ray, as far as I understand him, in that I think it is smart to have the bill focus on the poorest Philadelphians.
That doesn't mean I don't think people higher on the ladder don't need help, and I dont think the groups Ray is describing are particularly living large. But I think in the end, we are talking about a very, very small number of properties that will actually be built, and given the wait list for PHA, it makes sense to help out those who need it the most, first.
I can't buy the same house on a public interest lawyers salary that I grew up in. I certainly cannot buy a home in the neighborhood where I rent. However, when I actually join the working world, I will have some choice, even if I have to change my location choices a little bit.
There is another thread within all of that, of course, that has to do with urban policy and forcing income groups to mix, and that is a whole other 200 thread discussion. But as far as creating housing units, I just think we are so far behind where we need to be for the poor, and still OK for the sort of middle class, that what little we are getting should be focused where the coalition's bill focuses.
I'm confused
You, nor I, are the a part of the group of people I am describing. If you, Dan, earn $36 k on your own at your first job, you are out of the running for 60 or 70% of area median income right out the box. Unless you have 3 kids, or partner with someone who does not work and have two kids. Knowing you, both scenarios are unlikely.
I agree that it seems like the total number of units built will be small and the poorest Philadelphians should be served first.
I also agreed when you said that the passage of this bill would be a symbol to developers that they need to acknowledge Philadelphia' large low-income population and not just come in and make as much money as possible in our city by building condos.
Speaking to the symbolic aspect of this bill, I don't get why the coalition has cut off low wage-earners who are not the poorest of the poor, but are by no means middle class.
I would not care about their inclusion in this bill if I thought there were other programs or initiatives serving them, but I don't see that. And again, since it keeps getting lost in meaningless terms like "middle-class" I am focused specifically on 60% of median wage earner families of four.
I am not speaking in support of the Clarke bill, but I am confused about the thinking behind the Coalition bill.
First, how does it effect me
First, how does it effect me if I have four kids, but, only have legally acknowledged three, pending an appearance on Maury?
I am OK with being out of the running. I am not saying that the are not people who could use help. I am saying that there are people who need help more, so, lets use the little bit we are getting to help them first.
Philly is still, per median home prices, much more affordable than Boston, NYC, DC, etc.
and my question remains unanswered
I get your priority in terms of the broad strokes: help poorest get help first.
I obviously agree.
I don't get how you, or more importantly, this coalition, came up with the upper income cap of 50% of area median income.
Can you explain to me how those kinds of caps are determined?
No, I can't explain it.
No, I can't explain it, and frankly I think I would be fine with the limits being even lower.
It just doesn't bother me. Because if we are helping the poorest first, where there is such a huge need, and this bill wont come close to meeting that need, then it just seems sort of irrelevant to me.
does not make sense
this is a bill on affordable housing. it sets a precedent. it sends a message.
following your logic (which i do), why not set the upper cap at 25% of area median income?
I know it is politically
I know it is politically untenable, but, yes, that would be OK with me.
ok, so what makes 50% tenable to you
?
I don't know that it is. I
I don't know that it is. I guess we will see if it passes.
I am not party to how they made that decision. However, there are two basic bills out there, and I think that theirs is by far the best, and have no problem that it doesn't target people over 36k.
you are wrong generally
but I think I have said enough about why I think the cap should be a bit higher.
I do not support the Clarke bill, I know the coalition has been working hard and clearly been doing great work in that they already stopped the Clarke bill once. I think that's great.
If I had to, and it mattered, I would support the bill as is. However, since I don't think it is gonna pass now anyway, I'd like to see higher limits for the future.
And of course, I think like all of us, I want a lot more than IH thrown at the problem of lack of housing affordabilit--though of course passage of an IH bill would be huge.
No one gets our inside
No one gets our inside jokes.
Anyway, so, counselor: do you agree that the poorest should be prioritized?
i am not laughing
of course i do, but i also thank god you are not a legislator or worse a judge with your seeming lack of interest in the rule of law and its precedents.
i stand by myself: 60% should be included, maybe 75% of area median income.
OK, so, your gibberish
OK, so, your gibberish aside, what you are really concerned about is not that people in higher income levels get helped- because they won't if you prioritize the poorest first- but, more a statement that there are more people who need help than will get it?
How about this: take the limits that are in the coalition's bill (which they have split into thirds) and say, once affordable housing is solved in the City for people in those brackets, then we begin to help people up to 75%.
oh yea that is real helpful.
glad you are so willing to lend me and the city your brilliance.
But, you did not answer.
But, you did not answer. You are willing to prioritize lower income groups, right? So, a bill that included higher groups, but had specific priorities would be OK with you?
Let me quote Jennifer
Let's say that in two years, the first project is built under the rules of this law. Let's say they actually set aside units (which i suspect won't happen much in real life).
I imagine most developers will want to sell set-aside units cause otherwise who would manage them as rental units--does that sound right to you?
In that context, of selling units, I am all for prioritizing lower income potential homebuyers first, but when we start talking about real people, and i really don't know the answer here, how many $36 k households are looking to buy a $100 k home at any given time?
If there are not that many, rather than let one sit empty until a 36 k homebuyer one comes along, I'd rather sell to a $43 k household.
If you can set up prioritization like that, cool.
Again, rental units seem more important. Anyone have a better operational understanding of how this bill would create those? Like who would manage them etc. and why would a developer have an incentive to create them rather than selling units?
This is not going to happen
This is not going to happen with those numbers in that way, I don't think.
Private developers are very, very unlikely administrate affordable rentals on-site, as I think you stated. I honestly don't think there is going to be a ton of on-site construction, period, though that is a shame. If there is, it is probably NOT going to be rentals.
If we get rentals, they will be affordable complexes developed and run by affordable housing developers who apply for the in-lieu funds that developers will pay to the housing trust fund under the bill. I think most development, period, will come about this way though.
Whatever for-sale housing will have to be priced at a basis affordable to the designated targeted income level, according to the formula Marc described somewhere above. I agree about the difficulties in putting very low-income people into mortgages, about which we've been having some discussion. So I don't know how the specific scenario you describe would or should be dealt with; however, developers of low-income housing, along with CLS's housing department, drafted the bill, and would seem to be familiar with the interface of housing cost, mortgage availability, and income.
I am not following you
So Dan says he is for all including higher income levels (up to 75% of AMI) IF all other folks below 50% have been served. So I wondered how that would work in practice with affordably-price sale units.
If a unit goes up for sale, and no one under 50% AMI is ready to buy (can't qualify for a mortgage let's say), does the unit stay on the market until someone who i under 50% AMI comes along? Is that waht Dan means?
Or would he be ok with asking all 50% AMI folks to think about buying first, if no one expresses interest or qualifies for a mortgage with immediately offering it to folks up to at least 60 and maybe even 75% AMI?
Again, for folks who have not been following, remember that the difference between 50 and 60 % of AMI is the difference between $36 k and $43 k a year for a family of 4.
Ah, I conflated the just-earlier part of the conversation
And didn't realize you were responding to that specific idea of Dan's.
Ray, you are isolating income. In terms of what you are saying, what you are saying makes sense. It is a refinement on the bill. I personally do not think going up to 50 or 60% of AMI is objectionable if resources are distributed along the income spectrum. I think for political reasons, you may be right that it makes sense to go into the process of gathering support with a slightly more inclusive definition of who could be aided. But again, that is a refinement on the bill and I honestly think to exclusively focus on where the upper income line is drawn really effaces both the differences between the bills, and the other goals (like funding basic systems repair) that the Coalition bill is aimed at.
One idea that I had
One idea that I had (see below) is to amend the Clarke bill so that the en-lieu money is specifically dedicated to affordable rental housing for people at the 60% threshold and below.
If most of the money is going into en-lieu rather than on-site, then most of the assistance will be going to people below the 60% marker.
Then, with the new administration in place, create an inclusive zoning bill that (among other things) will help to create and maintain the existing workforce housing in the city (rental and owner-occupied), for people at the 60-100 range or higher.
--Tim (aka Short Schrift)
ok but
i would keep the AMI low on rent, lower than 60. Maybe even lower than 50.
Maybe rent 0-40, purchase
Maybe rent 0-40, purchase 40-60?
--Tim (aka Short Schrift)
You have to remember though,
You have to remember though, that at the very least, development has to be carefully distributed across the income/affordability spectrum any time you raise the upper limit. I know we've established that you don't support the Clarke bill per se, but it illustrates the problem that if you include 100%-125% of AMI, you are going to get a lot of what is pretty close to market rate housing, since that is what will take the least absolute subsidy to make affordable. There is certainly a risk that you lose the bottom, because it will take a lot more money in subsidy to build those units and there is definitely some pressure for numbers of units in a plan like this (so there is measurable accomplishment).
yea but who is talking about that level?
i have not proposed going that high (100-125%). I think that is where Clarke messed up.
I thought this conversation had become focused on adding 60 to maybe 75% of AMI.
I know I know
The takeaway point, which is better illustrated at the higher levels but carries over in general, is that unless you specifically demarcate say 1/3 for those at the bottom third of our spectrum, 1/3 in the middle, etc, you are going to get housing clustered at the high end, which cuts off more and more people at the bottom the more you raise the upper end.
I think that is why you have such a low cap, because it is a strategy to avoid totally the risk of the actual housing created being clustered at the top end of the affordability spectrum, making it in reality inaccessible to those at the bottom. This is avoided by keeping the whole spectrum narrow.
That's not a definite dismissal of the specific numbers you are proposing, which I've said make sense to examine as any bill is refined. Just a risk.
Why ask why?
The limits as well as much of the legislation was modeled after similar legislation around the country, according to what I know.
Thankfully, we have a new rep. in Bill Green (as well as perhaps others) who are asking these difficult questions. Still, ultimately, picking limits involves some subjective judgment calls.
The truth is that Clarke's bill has other flaws in it that are larger than just the limits. I don't have time to find them.
--Mike
Weeds in the Sidewalk
Some of the differences in
Some of the differences in the bills that transcend the income numbers are detailed above, somewhere in this morass.
I'd add to Mike's comments, that my understanding is that along with consultation with a national expert at, I think, Pratt, the specific affordability/income figures at least partly come out of a study that was commissioned from Amy Hillier at Penn about 4 or so years ago, that charted the housing affordability problem here in Philadelphia and who was most impacted.
the first real answer
so the housing affordability came from national trends and a four year old study? which means data collection was what, five years ago?
this was a big five years we just got through in Philadelphia real estate market history right?
I can not stress this enough, asking questions about the upper income cap does not mean that one has to be in favor of Clarke's bill. Clarke's bill seems sucky.
I am guessing on the exact
I am guessing on the exact time frame, but I think I am generally right.
While you can say that with the increase in prices things may have become harder for those closer to the middle, I can't imagine that they have gotten better for those worse off.
The last point is definitely noted and taken.
no, but this is where home ownership v. renting is important
I agree, thin